[OT] Automotive emission controls

[Beloved Leader]

You didn't mention the mileage on the engine.

27,100. No kidding. The car is hardly driven.

One final point to check, if you haven't
already done so, would be your PCV valve,

I hadn't thought about that. Thanks.

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

Yes, but they're sealed. Federal law and so forth. I mean, no one would
ever know, but to get at the idle mixture adjustment screws, I'd have
to take the carburetor off and drill out the sealing plugs. There are
quite a few connections to the carburetor, so its removal is a major
undertaking.

I didn't have much trouble fixing my Toyota's carb and got only 2 of
its 14 vacuum hoses wrong (taking clear photos or making sketches is a
good idea). The instructions included with the aftermarket rebuild kit
were better than those found in Chilton and Haynes manuals and almost
equal to the factory manual (but there's a book specifically about
Rochester carbs that's probably better than anything). OTOH
aftermarket rebuild kits may be noticeably inferior in quality, and
with my first kit, by Tomco, the rubber parts turned rock hard after
five years, and the float valve clogged because it lacked a filter
screen to trap the bits of rubber that flaked off the fuel line. The
float valve clogged as a result, yet Tomco advertrised that its float
valves were more clog resistant than others'.

I was to told to not disassemble the carb any further than necessary.
For example, the choke and throttle plates should be left alone, as
should any adjustment screws, but if it's necessary to touch the
latter, count the exact number of turns of their original settings
because a lot of times there's no simple way to adjust them correctly,
i.e., to set the idle mixture you may be instructed to use an exhaust
gas analyzer.

 

[[email protected]]

What about http://www.duracool.com/ ??

The web site says their R-12a substitute for Freon R-12 contains
propane, and propane/butane blends are known to cool well in systems
originally made for R-12. But I'd never try that since I don't like
explosions in my car, and while Duracool downplays the danger, I doubt
the refrigeration industry would have made such major efforts in the
early 20th century to develop nontoxic, nonflammable refrigerants if
the refrigerants available at the time had been reasonably safe.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

The web site says their R-12a substitute for Freon R-12 contains
propane, and propane/butane blends are known to cool well in systems
originally made for R-12. But I'd never try that since I don't like
explosions in my car, and while Duracool downplays the danger, I doubt
the refrigeration industry would have made such major efforts in the
early 20th century to develop nontoxic, nonflammable refrigerants if
the refrigerants available at the time had been reasonably safe.

Actually they were more concerned about poisoning the customer. Methyl
Chloride and ammonia are pretty nasty. The stuff in Duracool is pretty much
what is in a can of instant whipped cream - or anything else like that. With
12 gallons of gas under the car, 12 oz of butane in the engine compartment
doesn't worry me.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

No.

At the very least, put in AC brand spark plugs. Regular copper-cored
ACs are fine; there's no need for expensive platinum plugs.. The other
parts, regardless fo brand, should be OK, except for any inductive
supressive wires. If you have such wires (each measures only a few
hundred ohms, some brands are Borg-Warner "Kool Wire" and Splitfire),
replace them with regular resistive supressive wires (thousands of ohms
per wire). Unless the distributor rotor or cap has developed hairline
cracks from high voltage, there's no need to replace either, unless the
rotor is shorter than the original (I've seen that).

I mistakenly thought your idle speed was wavering, but since it's rock
steady and the CO and NOx are low, I can't imagine there being a fuel
system problem, and I doubt there are even vacuum leaks. So I have to
believe the trouble lies with the ignition. Someone suggested the
evaporative emissions system, but I believe it would also raise the CO
since it vents the fuel vapors into the intake and makes the mixture
richer.

Ice cold, baby. The real deal. The good stuff.

It's good you don't have a leaky Ford system or you could need a
recharge every 2 years.

The oldtimers like the stuff. Remember that the CCC system is ancient,
being of the same vintage as 8088-based computers. It is way obsolete
compared to OBD II. There is no such thing as a CCC data stream. It
does not provide the sort of information you mention.

Here's a web site for ALDL information from GM computers, and they say
it was available as far back as 1982 with the CLCC system. I don't
know if that's the same as CCC:

www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html

www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html

 

[[email protected]]

Actually they were more concerned about poisoning the customer. Methyl
Chloride and ammonia are pretty nasty. The stuff in Duracool is pretty much
what is in a can of instant whipped cream - or anything else like that. With
12 gallons of gas under the car, 12 oz of butane in the engine compartment
doesn't worry me.

The propellant for whipped cream is usually nitrous oxide, as many
people who've used it for cheap thrills have discovered. If
propane/butane was so safe, why haven't any makers of autos,
refrigerators, or air conditioners used it in the past several decades?

 

[Beloved Leader]

Here's a web site for ALDL information from GM computers, and they say
it was available as far back as 1982 with the CLCC system. I don't
know if that's the same as CCC:

www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html

www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html

Hey, I didn't know I could do that. My car is not at either of those
links, so I will have to do some snooping to find a page right for me.
I'm not sure how I process the data stream once I have it.

When I take the emissions test - rather, when my car takes the
emissions test - it is backed onto a treadmill, and the engine is
revved up so that the car is going either 15 or 25 miles per hour. The
OBD II-equipped cars don't have to go through this procedure. A cable
is plugged into their computer's port, and the data is (are?)
downloaded to the emissions analyzer. Even though their test is much
less complicated than mine, the $28 fee still applies.

Thanks a lot for the information.

 

[Beloved Leader]

www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html

www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html

I should add: when my car is tested, it is connected to the test
equipment in three ways.

1) The rear (driving) tires are on the treadmill, providing speed
information.
2) An exhaust gas analyzer probe is inserted into the tail pipe,
providing exhaust gas information.
3) An inductive pickup is clipped over one of the spark plug wires,
providing engine rpm information.

There is no connection made between the ALDL port and the test
equipment.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

The propellant for whipped cream is usually nitrous oxide, as many
people who've used it for cheap thrills have discovered. If
propane/butane was so safe, why haven't any makers of autos,
refrigerators, or air conditioners used it in the past several decades?

"Today, almost all aerosol cans contain alternative propellants, such as
liquefied petroleum gas, which do not pose as serious a threat to the
environment".

http://science.howstuffworks.com/aerosol-can3.htm

The Plain Man's Guide to Aerosols

http://www.yorks.karoo.net/aerosol/link4.htm

As for what and why, there's a safety difference between what is used in a
domicile and what is under the hood. It is possible that even the new
refrigerants will wind up being banned in time.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

Hey, I didn't know I could do that. My car is not at either of those
links, so I will have to do some snooping to find a page right for me.
I'm not sure how I process the data stream once I have it.

I'm not very impressed with that Cadillac dealer because if you paid
them they should have given a very specific diagnosis, like, "The
problem is X, and the car will run right if Y is repaired/replaced,"
where Y isn't something like an entire new engine or car. What tests
did the dealer perform? It's apparent that they didn't read out the
ALDL data, but did they hook up an ignition oscilloscope, measure the
exhaust emissions, check for vacuum leaks, or measure engine
compression or leakage? Skill levels of mechanics can vary greatly. I
once had a Chevy where the Chevy dealer that leased it couldn't solve a
pinging problem, and after charging $240 (about $500 in today's
dollars) they merely told me to run high octane gasoline. On the way
home, on a whim I decided to stop at a Buick dealer, and they solved
the problem in 20 minutes by changing a small restrictor or check valve
in a vacuum line. That wasn't 20 minutes of repair time but 20 minutes
from drive-in to drive-out.

 

[Beloved Leader]

I'm not very impressed with that Cadillac dealer because....

I haven't taken the car to the Cadillac dealer yet. All five of the
emissions tests it has failed have been at a nearby gas station. Since
the next test will cost me $28 no matter where it is performed, I will
take it to the Cadillac dealer then.

No one at the Cadillac dealer has worked on my car. I have gone up
there and hit them up for some free advice on how I should proceed to
repair my car, but I am the one turning the wrenches.

... did they hook up an ignition oscilloscope, measure the
exhaust emissions, check for vacuum leaks, or measure engine
compression or leakage?

No. I have not asked them to do any of that.

 

[Beloved Leader]

Here's a web site for ALDL information from GM computers, and they say
it was available as far back as 1982 with the CLCC system. I don't
know if that's the same as CCC:

www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html

www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html

I think that all GMs from the early through the remainder of the decade
used the CCC system, which just means that they had a computer managing
certain aspects of the engine, transmission, and transmission.

The CCC system then seems to be available in a variety of flavors. Some
cars had throttle body injection, some had multi-port injection, and
some used a carburetor. It seems to me that the cars with carburetors
were referred to as being of the CLCC variety.

http://www.ws6transam.org/aldl_28.html is the page that is probably so
close to mine that I could use the information in provides directly.

http://www.mitsi.com/Projects/types.htm

Note that every system has an "I" in it somewhere other than the CLCC
system. I believe the "I" stands for injection and the "C" for
carburetor.

 

[Ray Lopez [email protected]]

[email protected] (Eric Swanson) wrote in

You didn't mention the mileage on the engine. Consider that older
engines tend to have trouble with valve guide seals, which harden with
age. A bit of extra oil will seep past into the intake and may add to
your HC emissions, especially at low speeds when the throttle is almost
closed. Also, your rings may be allowing some oil into the cylinders.
One final point to check, if you haven't already done so, would be your
PCV valve, which should close at high vacuum, but may be so dirty or
worn that it is not doing so, thus allowing excessive amounts of gas
into the intake manifold from the crankcase.

The Dilapidated Shithouse Troll Swanson insisted that we need 50-60 years
of data yet here he is pontificating without his 50-60 years of data.

The GOP wants to ask the voters one question: "what R U wearing -- R U
naked"?

 

[Beloved Leader]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

No. The Oldsmobile 5L/307 cid V8 is the last of the carbureted engines.
The carburetor (US spelling) has a throttle position sensor, but
everything about the carburetor's operation is mechanical, not
electronic, unless there's something I'm overlooking.

Thanks.

Yikes. That's not right. The carburetor does indeed have a mixture
control solenoid. Ten times per second, acting on readings from, among
other sensors, the O2 sensor, it adjusts the air-fuel mixture.

Wow, was that ever a wrong thing to say. I apologize for that.

I got the instructions from a tech at the Cadillac dealer on how to use
a dwell meter to check the operation of the mixture contol solenoid.

I found a more appropriate port at which to measure my vacuum. It is
about 19-20", but it is not steady. There is a vacuum leak somewhere in
all those hoses. Those of you who said I had a vacuum leak, take a bow.

I dread vacuum leaks. They can take forever to find.

 

[Beloved Leader]

I mistakenly thought your idle speed was wavering, but since it's rock
steady and the CO and NOx are low, I can't imagine there being a fuel
system problem, and I doubt there are even vacuum leaks.

Well, it's not that steady. It does waver, but not wildly. If you put
your hand over the carburetor throat to block off air, the speed
increases, and the amount of vacuum goes up too.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Yikes. That's not right. The carburetor does indeed have a mixture
control solenoid. Ten times per second, acting on readings from, among
other sensors, the O2 sensor, it adjusts the air-fuel mixture.

Right. I obviously don't know your car or carb being UK based, but SU in
the UK produced electronically controlled carbs as a last ditch stand
against injection before ceasing production. They used stepper motors for
both idle and mixture control, and worked extremely well - while they
worked, that is. Many have been converted back to 'manual' ;-)

Wow, was that ever a wrong thing to say. I apologize for that.

I got the instructions from a tech at the Cadillac dealer on how to use
a dwell meter to check the operation of the mixture contol solenoid.

I found a more appropriate port at which to measure my vacuum. It is
about 19-20", but it is not steady. There is a vacuum leak somewhere in
all those hoses. Those of you who said I had a vacuum leak, take a bow.

I dread vacuum leaks. They can take forever to find.

Spraying with something like WD40 can help while a helper observes the
exhaust. If this gets drawn in and burnt, you'll get smoke.

Is the heater/AC controlled anywhere by vacuum devices? The brake servo?
Auto box? Remove all these feeds and blank off the outlets. But don't
forget the engine crankcase breather system too when checking for leaks.

 

[Beloved Leader]

Right.

The Rochester Quadrajet on this car works, essentially, like all the
other Rochester Quadrajets - venturis, float bowls, metering rods, idle
circuits - same old stuff. The mixture control solenoid and throttle
position sensor are different, though.

Is the heater/AC controlled anywhere by vacuum devices? The brake servo?
Auto box? Remove all these feeds and blank off the outlets. But don't
forget the engine crankcase breather system too when checking for leaks.

Yes, there are systems that run on vacuum signals. The cruise control
is vacuum actuated, and the heater controls send a vacuum to motors
that open or close doors to direct heated air to foot-level vents or
face-level vents in the passenger compartment.

I was getting an erroneous vacuum reading, because I had connected my
vacuum gauge downstream of a check valve that sent vacuum to a storage
tank that was part of the heater control system and cruise control.
Even with the engine off, vacuum was present. That would have tipped me
off right away, but I had disconnected my gauge with the engine running
and did not note that effect. With the gauge connected upstream of the
check valve (that is, between the intake manifold and valve), I now get
a reading that better reflects the actual state of the vacuum. The
vacuum is still at a good level, about 20", but the needle is twitching
at about 10 Hertz, which is (incidentally?) the rate at which the
mixture control solenoid is refreshed.

Right now, I have the gauge on a long enough hose that I can sit in the
driver's seat and watch it. The cruise control and heater controls are
disconnected. Since this did not alter the stalling at idle, those
circuits can be eliminated as a cause.

 

[Beloved Leader]

Is the heater/AC controlled anywhere by vacuum devices? The brake servo?
Auto box? Remove all these feeds and blank off the outlets. But don't
forget the engine crankcase breather system too when checking for leaks.

I can't recall whether the TH200R4 transmission has a vacuum modulator
or not. That's easily enough established.

Thanks for writing.