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OT: Are protons really quantum black holes?

  • Thread starter Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie
  • Start date
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Mark Martin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Happy said:
If you read this link it says the
reason for the arms is in no way proven.
Treating them like a fluid is just
easier to deal with.
You don't seem to grasp, Sam, that most of
these things are just at the 'best guess'
stage.
I'll bet you believe 100% in Black Holes, Dark
Matter, and Dark Energy, don't you?

Yes, it's not proven. (Nothing ever is.) But understanding the
presence of arms is also in no way just a best guess. Astrophysicists
have been doing something better than guessing for deceades: they've
been doing numerical modeling on computers, from which some semblence
of isnight can be gained. You, on the other hand, *are* just guessing,
about everything, all the time.

-Mark Martin
 
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Mark Fergerson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mark said:
Mark Fergerson wrote:

BTW it isn't "my" theory.
It's become evident the last couple of days that John confuses chaos
theory with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. He reads the word
"chaos" and projects "random" onto it.

Ah, that explains it. I also suppose he can't understand how
quantum-scale randomness can become macro-scale determinism.


Mark L. Fergerson
 
P

PD

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mark said:
BTW it isn't "my" theory.



Ah, that explains it. I also suppose he can't understand how
quantum-scale randomness can become macro-scale determinism.

This "continuum limit" exercise is frequently repeated in a quantum
mechanics class, just as a benchmark that "quantum weirdness" reduces
to classical expectations at scales that are large compared to h-bar.

I don't know of a way I can explain that convincingly in a paragraph of
words. I think it's just better to calculate it, graph it, etc.

PD
 
H

Happy Hippy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mark said:
BTW it isn't "my" theory.



Ah, that explains it. I also suppose he can't understand how
quantum-scale randomness can become macro-scale determinism.


Mark L. Fergerson
Tell me, Mark.

First let me tell you how I was on a runway in
a plane at 35 below with 3000 feet of
freezing rain above us which we didn't know
about, a plane with no de-icers, and a pilot
who was just going to 'go for it', and during our
run-ups an oil seal broke so we had to abort.

What kind of q-randomness saved my ass THAT day?

I think you have to have your own
experiences of this type to open your
eyes. I have had numerous such. It's like
somebody is always backing my play. (-:

John
 
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Happy Hippy

Jan 1, 1970
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Mark said:
Incidentally, notice that Chaos Theory is intimately dependent on
fractals. You don't have a conceptual problem with fractals, do you? I
hope not because you're surrounded by examples of them.

This page explains the link between Chaos Theory and fractals a little
better:

http://www.mathjmendl.org/chaos/

It goes back to Poicare's discovery that the Solar System's behavior
is not stable Newtonian-deterministic-wise. I have to ask you how you
can possibly believe that an entire galaxy can be stable in any
particular observed state when our Solar System isn't?

Very easily.
As you look at finer and finer details of anything,
there is more and more variation.
We both have a head and (I hope) the required
number of appendages.
Fine.
But your DNA is unique to you.
Your fingerprints are unique to you.
When we look at your microbial population, it
is vastly different than mine and wildly changing all
the time, just like mine.
All our cells have completely changed over every 12
years.
The gut cells change over every 2 days.

Our sun could frigging explode and it would
make *no* difference to the galaxy. Hell, stars
are going nova all the time- its part of their
cycle.

So basically you are saying:
if your skin cells just die, then
how can the rest of you be stable?

Well, it isn't.
But it is stable much longer than the skin cell.

Likewise galaxies are not invulnerable; they
can get into a situation like an atom-smasher or
a fission bomb or a Black Hole which will seriously
alter them.

But *they* are the stable structure. Our Sun and planets
are temporary waveforms that are emitting energy
in the form of photons and will eventually run out of
that energy.

Yeah- I don't hesitate to say that galaxies
are very stable- as stable as atoms.
Wanna talk about LSD trips? FTM, wanna talk about perfectly-straight
"paranormal" experiences? I've had plenty of both, but they don't mean
squat objectively because they're impossible to replicate for other people.

Mark L. Fergerson
Did you have any eye-opening experiences on LSD?

John
Galaxy Model 4 the Atom
http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/
 
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Mark Fergerson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tell me, Mark.

First let me tell you how I was on a runway in
a plane at 35 below with 3000 feet of
freezing rain above us which we didn't know
about, a plane with no de-icers, and a pilot
who was just going to 'go for it', and during our
run-ups an oil seal broke so we had to abort.

What kind of q-randomness saved my ass THAT day?

Sounds more like "go for it"-boy also likes to neglect his
maintenance. Now I suppose you want to know why the seal failed just
then? Familiar with the term Mean Time Between Failure, and why it's
called that?
I think you have to have your own
experiences of this type to open your
eyes. I have had numerous such. It's like
somebody is always backing my play. (-:

You have an exaggerated sense of your own importance.

You also appear, as Mark Martin said, to assume Chaos Theory
means total disorder- the diametric opposite of Determinism, but it
isn't. Chaos Theory is about the predictable patterns discernable in
certain types of macroscopic (originally not quantum-level)
randomness. When first announced it was a terrible shock both to
strict Determinists and Quantum Theorists alike yet it has been
shown to have wide application in both ways of looking at the real
world, whether they (or you) like it or not:

http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html

Incidentally, notice that Chaos Theory is intimately dependent on
fractals. You don't have a conceptual problem with fractals, do you?
I hope not because you're surrounded by examples of them.

This page explains the link between Chaos Theory and fractals a
little better:

http://www.mathjmendl.org/chaos/

It goes back to Poicare's discovery that the Solar System's
behavior is not stable Newtonian-deterministic-wise. I have to ask
you how you can possibly believe that an entire galaxy can be stable
in any particular observed state when our Solar System isn't?

Of course, if your sense of self-importance weren't so overblown
you could have Googled these and more pages to learn from. But you
apparently don't believe you have anything left to learn. That's
kinda sad; you must live in a very boring Universe.

Also kinda sad is that you failed to respond to my earlier
challenges asking you for cites to back up your beliefs re: galactic
arms; maybe you're waiting for "somebody" to do it for you?

BTW, there's a serious problem with trying to build a worldview
solely on one's own experiences; you can't live long enough to
experience everything (not to mention all the stuff you missed
before being born), nor can you replicate many experiences to see if
they might have gone differently. For that matter you can't
replicate an experienced event so that someone else can have the
same experience, period. I've had _lots_ of experiences I refuse to
cite as evidence for anything no matter what I may think they mean;
that's one major difference between science and whatever the hell it
is you're doing.

Wanna talk about LSD trips? FTM, wanna talk about
perfectly-straight "paranormal" experiences? I've had plenty of
both, but they won't mean squat to anyone else because they're
impossible to replicate for other people.

Mark L. Fergerson
 
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Sam Wormley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Happy said:
Hell, stars are going nova all the time- its part of their
cycle.

Only stars of about 10 solar masses or more can experience
a core collapse resulting in a supernova.

And only white dwarfs accreting gas from a companion, slowly
enough, experience novae on their surfaces and can to so
more than once.
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Only stars of about 10 solar masses or more can experience
a core collapse resulting in a supernova.

Nova said:
And only white dwarfs accreting gas from a companion, slowly
enough, experience novae on their surfaces and can to so
more than once.

Cite. From what I remember of Astronomy all stars will nova. Sol
will expand to roughly the size of Mars' orbit before it fades into
white dwarfism.
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
You are confusing nova with red giant phase of many stars.
Nope. As it collapses into white dwarfism it'll shed it's outer
layers; nova.
 
S

Sam Wormley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith said:
Nope. As it collapses into white dwarfism it'll shed it's outer
layers; nova.

Keith -- You are confusing nova with red giant phase of many stars.
The word "nova" has a well defined meaning in astronomy--the explosive
"burning" of hydrogen gas on the surface of a white dwarf.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nova
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/novae/novae.html

Red dwarf stars like Barnard star will never get hot enough to
fuse helium, and therefore, will never have a red giant phase.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101stars.html
http://www.astronomynotes.com/evolutn/s1.htm
http://edu-observatory.org/eo/white_dwarfs.html
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith -- You are confusing nova with red giant phase of many stars.
The word "nova" has a well defined meaning in astronomy--the explosive
"burning" of hydrogen gas on the surface of a white dwarf.

No, I'm certainly not confusing the two. As a red-giant collapses
the shock waves will compress and "ignite" the hydrogen (perhaps
helium - can't remember) causing the nova.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nova
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/novae/novae.html

Red dwarf stars like Barnard star will never get hot enough to
fuse helium, and therefore, will never have a red giant phase.

I'm not sure about Barnard's, but most white dwarfs have already
passed through the red giant -> collapse -> nova -> white dwarf
stage. Those that weren't big enough to make this transitions are
brown dwarfs.
 
S

Sam Wormley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith said:
No, I'm certainly not confusing the two. As a red-giant collapses
the shock waves will compress and "ignite" the hydrogen (perhaps
helium - can't remember) causing the nova.

Unfortunately you "remember" wrong... go to the library!

I'm not sure about Barnard's, but most white dwarfs have already
passed through the red giant -> collapse -> nova -> white dwarf
stage. Those that weren't big enough to make this transitions are
brown dwarfs.

Barnard's star has about a tenth on the Sun's mass and is a
main sequence star happily fusing hydrogen into helium via
the pp-chain in it's core.
 
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