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martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
My prayers are with you and your family,

Watch the spouse too. If they are a true team, she'll need just as
much help as he does
[snip]

Family support system already in motion.

Also: My son will go home tomorrow. He's ambulatory, and will go to
a local doctor's office for chemo... they outfitted him with a "port"
in his chest (I haven't seen it yet), to allow "normal" living,
showering, etc.

Biopsy samples were finally taken from liver and lungs today, but we
don't yet know the results.

Thanks for your support!

...Jim Thompson
My thoughts are with you as well


martin
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Okay, but those cancers are a *LOT* less agressive than liver or lung
cancer. Here you mention cancers that already have a 80+ or better
chance of surviving.

---
What are you talking about? No cancer has a chance of surviving if
it kills its host unless it's put into the ground and given a chance
to emerge again.
---
So I am telling you again, the chance of surviving
cancer has very little to do with 'fighting'.
 
Home is good, less chance of infections and better yet, no folks who
dont read patients charts .
Thats great news.

Steve Roberts
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello John,

Absolutely.

BTW, among the 'other' cancers there was lung cancer (survived, so far)
and also esophageal cancer. The latter is considered fatal in 90%+ of
cases yet that patient is in her 5th year now. Very strong will-power.
Ok, the esophagus and stomach are gone but since she lived almost
vegetarian anyway it didn't change her diet too much, just no hard stuff
anymore. It also comes with the burden of remaining seriously
underweight but otherwise she picked up all of her previous activities.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello David,
Assuming there is a mind-body connection, how can you figure out what is
cause and what is effect? ...


Well, you can't. For me (personally) it's a matter of faith. For others
it's a matter of just not giving up, no matter what. Or both.

... Maybe the people who have a positive attitude
can somehow sense that they are going to recover, or maybe they just feel
better because of something in the physical state of their bodies. The
others may somehow know that they are too sick, or they may just feel
worse.

Of course I cannot speak for anybody who had cancer since I never went
through that myself. But from seeing many others go through it I
observed some things. For example, when you drive them to appointments
where they will hear intermediate results (happens very often in
leukemia cases) some are worried sick the whole trip. They stare at the
dashboard and you can't strike up any decent conversation. Others hop in
the car and either say "I'll just have to take it one step at a time, no
matter what the doc says today" or "It's in God's hands anyway". After
that, it's a conversation just like with someone who isn't sick. Yeah,
they'll still worry at times but it doesn't consume their mind.

Sometimes worry comes in phases and can be eased, big time. We had quite
a number of breast cancer cases in the neighborhood and at my former
workplace. Lots of despair. Then their faces lit up when they saw
strangers walking in with several pots of delicious meals every day when
they were too weak from chemo. Most of them had never experienced this
level of support and it really changed them, and their attitude towards
the disease. So did their families. Even when the patient didn't make it
all this lasted, there was a purpose in it.

Regards, Joerg
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Fields said:
---
What are you talking about? No cancer has a chance of surviving if
it kills its host unless it's put into the ground and given a chance
to emerge again.
---

A few messages ago I said:
"Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this
context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an
insult to make patients believe this is an important factor,
almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true
looser."

If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're
right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say
no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person
with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer.

If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you
do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is
a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person
to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very
good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind
cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that,
the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have
all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you.
To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless
lie.

My view anyway.
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello John,


Absolutely.

BTW, among the 'other' cancers there was lung cancer (survived, so far)
and also esophageal cancer. The latter is considered fatal in 90%+ of
cases yet that patient is in her 5th year now. Very strong will-power.
Ok, the esophagus and stomach are gone but since she lived almost
vegetarian anyway it didn't change her diet too much, just no hard stuff
anymore. It also comes with the burden of remaining seriously
underweight but otherwise she picked up all of her previous activities.

Okay, she fell in the group of 10%. How can you be so sure it is due
to her strong will power? Did the other 90% of similar patients not
have enough will power?

Do breast cancer patients have stronger will power than lung cancer
patients? Applying your logic, they must have, looking at the
statistics of survival for these kinds of cancer.

For starters, it makes a great difference if a lung cancer can be
operated or not. This largely depends on the location of the
tumor. If it is *not* operable, you have to be damn "lucky" to
survive another two years - one year is more likely.

But if you insist that (severe) patients are helped by fairy tales
and need to be told it is all a matter of will power and prayers,
continue with your important mission. I strongly wonder if it is
something to be proud of; I would be deeply ashamed of such dishonesty.
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frank said:
A few messages ago I said:
"Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this
context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an
insult to make patients believe this is an important factor,
almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true
looser."

If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're
right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say
no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person
with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer.

If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you
do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is
a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person
to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very
good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind
cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that,
the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have
all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you.
To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless
lie.

My view anyway.

If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then
you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of
patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo
effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we
do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of
something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or
regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer
regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to
have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has
befriended a living saint.
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs said:
If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then
you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of
patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo
effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we
do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of
something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or
regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer
regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to
have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has
befriended a living saint.

But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise
floor...
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most victims are very old and it's their time to go anyway- they don't
have much time left even without the cancer.
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Fields said:
---
Perhaps it would be much larger if its members hadn't been convinced
that their situation was hopeless and allowed themselves to die
without even _trying_ to fight.
--

2 * 0 = 0.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Frank,
Okay, she fell in the group of 10%. How can you be so sure it is due
to her strong will power? Did the other 90% of similar patients not
have enough will power?

The ones I knew who had emotionally given up are all dead by now, from
the group that fought it some are dead and some are remarkably well.

Do breast cancer patients have stronger will power than lung cancer
patients? Applying your logic, they must have, looking at the
statistics of survival for these kinds of cancer.

Frank, now you are twisting my arguments. Let's not go there.

For starters, it makes a great difference if a lung cancer can be
operated or not. This largely depends on the location of the
tumor. If it is *not* operable, you have to be damn "lucky" to
survive another two years - one year is more likely.

Sure. But there is a huge difference in what you can achieve in that
year or two. You can sit on the couch in self-pity. Then you may not
even exercise anymore (saying "what good does it do" or whatever), quit
eating well and so on. This will increase your misery. Or, you can go
out there and do good works and feel as a contributor to society. Big
difference.

One of the striking examples was a California politician. He was on the
other side of my political convictions but I admired him, still do.
Robert Matsui told the public that he had a cancer that would destroy
his red blood cells and there really isn't a cure. He just kept going,
made sure his affairs and those of his constituents were in order and
after he passed away his wife Doris was elected into that office. Also a
remarkable woman.

Some people cannot emotionally deal with it all. If they want to they
can get help. That is one of the ministries we provide around here and
it costs nothing. Except gasoline for the car and time but the
caregivers (all volunteers) provide that.

But if you insist that (severe) patients are helped by fairy tales
and need to be told it is all a matter of will power and prayers,
continue with your important mission. I strongly wonder if it is
something to be proud of; I would be deeply ashamed of such dishonesty.
We'll never agree on this. I am with Jim, John and others. You have a
different opinion, and that's ok.

Regards, Joerg
 
N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
They put a STENT in Duane's colon and laser-ablated the tumor there.

So they haven't cut into him yet.

They're installing a "port" in his chest this morning for ease of
doing the chemo.

The doctors seem very upbeat, but I saw the pictures... doesn't look
good to me :-(

It ain't over until its over! Curing cancer is a long process and its
not a pleasant one, but a 33 year old person should have a decent
chance. Good luck to you and your son.
 
N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frank Bemelman said:
A few messages ago I said:
"Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this
context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an
insult to make patients believe this is an important factor,
almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true
looser."

Sometimes I eat too much. When my stomage starts to protest I have two
options: tell myself I'm not sick or don't and vomit... The mind is in
control over the body. The best example is sexual arrousel.
Someone with a positive attitude will feel much better than someone
with a negative attitude. Does this cure cancer? No, but it helps a
little if it means the person eats and drinks enough.
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nico Coesel said:
Sometimes I eat too much. When my stomage starts to protest I have two
options: tell myself I'm not sick or don't and vomit... The mind is in
control over the body. The best example is sexual arrousel.
Someone with a positive attitude will feel much better than someone
with a negative attitude. Does this cure cancer? No, but it helps a
little if it means the person eats and drinks enough.

I have nothing against positive attitudes. I am not saying that there
is any need to depress cancer patients, on the contrary. Do whatever
it takes to cheer them up. But don't tell 'm cheap lies like they can
battle their way out by showing will power or similar crap. Let them
decide for themselves what they throw in.

Trying to convince patients that will power is an important ingredient
will only make them feel guilty for not performing well enough when
things turn for the worse. They certainly don't deserve that. It is
not their fault.

Humans are a strange species. If we see someone struggle with 6 bags
trying to open a door, we jump up to offer some help. If we see a
cancer patient struggling, we do nothing and chant "You can do it".

We all know what happens with children who have overly demanding
parents.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
2 * 0 = 0.

---
Perhaps I didn't make my point strongly enough.

What I was referring to, gently, was that if it wasn't for people
like you, who seem to be so firmly convinced that resistance is
futile once cancer has taken hold that they infect others with that
belief, there might a lot more survivors walking around.
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Fields said:
---
Perhaps I didn't make my point strongly enough.

What I was referring to, gently, was that if it wasn't for people
like you, who seem to be so firmly convinced that resistance is
futile once cancer has taken hold that they infect others with that
belief, there might a lot more survivors walking around.

There are plenty that "fight" their asses off, and die. If the
choice to "fight" is their own, that is perfectly all right.
But if they are only fighting because they were told to do so,
it leaves them with the guilt of not performing well enough.
They might feel that they have dissapointed their loved ones,
by not having "fought" hard enough.

If there is a statistic figure that indicates a good chance of
recovering (like walking again after broken knee caps) then by
all means tell a patient to "fight" for his or her recovery.

But if the chances are extremely grim, don't ask for the
impossible. Let them decide for themselves if they want to
fight or not. They are not helped with our well meanted
advice.

For instance, if there was any reason for it, I would ask you
to climb on the roof of your house, but never to climb the Himalaya.
Out of respect, I will not ask you to do something you're clearly
not fitted for.

Also, if you told me that you intend to climb the roof of your
house, I'd say "You can do it". If you told me that you intend
to climb the Himalaya, I'd say "Yeah, nice, let's go fishing
instead.". Again, out of respect. I don't enjoy seeing people
fall flat on their face, well, not often anyway.

What do you think?

;)
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have nothing against positive attitudes. I am not saying that there
is any need to depress cancer patients, on the contrary. Do whatever
it takes to cheer them up.

---
Unless it's telling them that they've got a chance to make it
through it all by believing that they can?
---
But don't tell 'm cheap lies like they can
battle their way out by showing will power or similar crap.

---
I don't think anyone's saying that, Frank, but you seem to be saying
that once a cancer's in there, its host has nothing to with killing
it, and control of the patient might as well be relinquished to the
coroner.
---
Let them decide for themselves what they throw in.

---
Eventually, that's what it'll boil down to, but if they're told at
the outset that no matter what role they choose to play in their
recovery that that role will be immaterial, why would they bother?
---
Trying to convince patients that will power is an important ingredient
will only make them feel guilty for not performing well enough when
things turn for the worse.

---
Instead of , "_If_ things turn for the worse" you chose, "_When_
things turn for the worse."

With a defeatist attitude like that I can certainly see where you're
coming from.
---
They certainly don't deserve that. It is not their fault.

---
Everybody knows that, and everybody knows that the best chance of
overcoming _any_ life-threatening situation depends on, among other
things, _wanting_ to survive. Telling someone that no matter how
hard they fight they're powerless to help with their own survival
is, in my book, criminal.
---
Humans are a strange species. If we see someone struggle with 6 bags
trying to open a door, we jump up to offer some help. If we see a
cancer patient struggling, we do nothing and chant "You can do it".

---
Bullshit.

The help we offer with cancer, long term, is learning about it in
order to defeat it, and the help we offer a patient, is to give them
the chance to be partners in their treatment and offer them hope.
---
 
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