Options for debugging PSoCs

[Charlie E.]

Hi Guys,
Ok, I'm stuck, and need some advice.

I have been redesigning a project from PIC24's to run on the PSoC. It
has take a couple of months to get the hang of using the Designer
software, write the beginning of my program, and put together a
prototype on one of their development boards. Now for my problem.

There is no debugger on this thing! I prgrammed the chip, and then
hit the debug menu, and the entire thing was grayed out. In pure
puzzlement I started searching around, and it looks like you also need
to go out and buy a separate $375 debugger! And it isn't just a
debugger, it is an ICE so that means you aren't testing on your chip,
you are testing on an emulator for the chip. That worries the heck out
of me, when there are all sorts of little settings on these things
that it would be easy to miss in an emulation.

So, any of ya'll got any experience on these things have any advice?
Are there inexpensive (i.e. CHEAP) debuggers out there? I only spent
$150 for the Microchip ICD2. I only spent $50 for the Freescale JTAG
interface. The boss is considering killing me if we have to go out
and spend another $400 bucks just to see if these things work.

Thanks for any help ya'll can give me!

Charlie

 

[Charlie E.]

Ouch :-(

...Jim Thompson

Yeah,
After thinking about it last night, I am just about ready to go back
to the PIC24. My problem was that I have an RGB LED that I am
measuring the reflection with a phototransistor to do color
classification. Unfortunately, the variation from one LED and photo
transistor to another means that I couldn't just build one standard
amp to work with them. I needed something I could calibrate to each
unit. The PSoCs programmability seemed ideal, and let me incorporate
the filters internally, saving parts count. Unfortunately, the lack
of an inexpensive debugger is a showstopper. I think I will look into
using a PGA in the phototransistor circuit and go back to the PICs!

Charlie

 

[Joerg]

Hi Guys,
Ok, I'm stuck, and need some advice.

I have been redesigning a project from PIC24's to run on the PSoC. It
has take a couple of months to get the hang of using the Designer
software, write the beginning of my program, and put together a
prototype on one of their development boards. Now for my problem.

There is no debugger on this thing! I prgrammed the chip, and then
hit the debug menu, and the entire thing was grayed out. In pure
puzzlement I started searching around, and it looks like you also need
to go out and buy a separate $375 debugger! And it isn't just a
debugger, it is an ICE so that means you aren't testing on your chip,
you are testing on an emulator for the chip. That worries the heck out
of me, when there are all sorts of little settings on these things
that it would be easy to miss in an emulation.

So, any of ya'll got any experience on these things have any advice?
Are there inexpensive (i.e. CHEAP) debuggers out there? I only spent
$150 for the Microchip ICD2. I only spent $50 for the Freescale JTAG
interface. The boss is considering killing me if we have to go out
and spend another $400 bucks just to see if these things work.

Thanks for any help ya'll can give me!

Not sure which PSoC and SW you are using but PSoC Creator has a debugger
in there:

https://secure.cypress.com/?rID=37512&source=header

 

[Charlie E.]

Not sure which PSoC and SW you are using but PSoC Creator has a debugger
in there:

https://secure.cypress.com/?rID=37512&source=header

Yeah, that is what bit me. Creator is only for the new PSoC3 and
PSoC5 line, that apparently do include internal debugging. However,
they are just coming out, have a HUGE price premium, and are way
overkill for what I need to do. The existing PSoC Designer software
does have a debugger built in, but what they don't emphasize is that
it is only for use with their emulator/debugger, not for their every
day chips. Nothing like going to use some feature, and find out it
really isn't there!

Charlie

 

[Joerg]

Yeah, that is what bit me. Creator is only for the new PSoC3 and
PSoC5 line, that apparently do include internal debugging. However,
they are just coming out, have a HUGE price premium, and are way
overkill for what I need to do. The existing PSoC Designer software
does have a debugger built in, but what they don't emphasize is that
it is only for use with their emulator/debugger, not for their every
day chips. Nothing like going to use some feature, and find out it
really isn't there!

Have you talked with Cypress about that? I'd probably call them in this
case instead of emailing.

 

[Martin Riddle]

Yeah,
After thinking about it last night, I am just about ready to go back
to the PIC24. My problem was that I have an RGB LED that I am
measuring the reflection with a phototransistor to do color
classification. Unfortunately, the variation from one LED and photo
transistor to another means that I couldn't just build one standard
amp to work with them. I needed something I could calibrate to each
unit. The PSoCs programmability seemed ideal, and let me incorporate
the filters internally, saving parts count. Unfortunately, the lack
of an inexpensive debugger is a showstopper. I think I will look into
using a PGA in the phototransistor circuit and go back to the PICs!

Charlie

Can you setup a fixed filter and run a cal routine on the LED? Grab the
resulting data, calculate a correction, and reprogram the PSOC? No debug
mode required.
This can be done with FPGA's using tables loaded at synthesis time.
FPGAs arent really debugable, only simulators are available for them.

Cheers

 

[JosephKK]

Hi Guys,
Ok, I'm stuck, and need some advice.

I have been redesigning a project from PIC24's to run on the PSoC. It
has take a couple of months to get the hang of using the Designer
software, write the beginning of my program, and put together a
prototype on one of their development boards. Now for my problem.

There is no debugger on this thing! I prgrammed the chip, and then
hit the debug menu, and the entire thing was grayed out. In pure
puzzlement I started searching around, and it looks like you also need
to go out and buy a separate $375 debugger! And it isn't just a
debugger, it is an ICE so that means you aren't testing on your chip,
you are testing on an emulator for the chip. That worries the heck out
of me, when there are all sorts of little settings on these things
that it would be easy to miss in an emulation.

So, any of ya'll got any experience on these things have any advice?
Are there inexpensive (i.e. CHEAP) debuggers out there? I only spent
$150 for the Microchip ICD2. I only spent $50 for the Freescale JTAG
interface. The boss is considering killing me if we have to go out
and spend another $400 bucks just to see if these things work.

Thanks for any help ya'll can give me!

Charlie

That is around the range i would consider killing the idiot boss.

Just as an alternative approach, buy it yourself and ballyhoo how
much time it saves you. You just might humiliate him into getting
up to the 1980s, when the transition between tool cost ($XXXXX)
versus engineer productivity improvements had begun to turn the
corner (for even mid scale companies, one seat shared over several
engineers).

 

[Charlie E.]

That is around the range i would consider killing the idiot boss.

Just as an alternative approach, buy it yourself and ballyhoo how
much time it saves you. You just might humiliate him into getting
up to the 1980s, when the transition between tool cost ($XXXXX)
versus engineer productivity improvements had begun to turn the
corner (for even mid scale companies, one seat shared over several
engineers).

Ah, but it doesn't help that I am married to her... ;-)

Charlie

 

[Nico Coesel]

Hi Guys,
Ok, I'm stuck, and need some advice.

I have been redesigning a project from PIC24's to run on the PSoC. It
has take a couple of months to get the hang of using the Designer
software, write the beginning of my program, and put together a
prototype on one of their development boards. Now for my problem.

There is no debugger on this thing! I prgrammed the chip, and then
hit the debug menu, and the entire thing was grayed out. In pure
puzzlement I started searching around, and it looks like you also need
to go out and buy a separate $375 debugger! And it isn't just a
debugger, it is an ICE so that means you aren't testing on your chip,
you are testing on an emulator for the chip. That worries the heck out
of me, when there are all sorts of little settings on these things
that it would be easy to miss in an emulation.

So, any of ya'll got any experience on these things have any advice?
Are there inexpensive (i.e. CHEAP) debuggers out there? I only spent
$150 for the Microchip ICD2. I only spent $50 for the Freescale JTAG
interface. The boss is considering killing me if we have to go out
and spend another $400 bucks just to see if these things work.

Thanks for any help ya'll can give me!

Do like me: Get a serial interface + command line running on the PSoc
*and* write / test most of the software on a PC first. Compile for the
target after debugging.

 

[JosephKK]

Ah, but it doesn't help that I am married to her... ;-)

Charlie

That does rather complicate things. Then again it took the two of you
to so thoroughly mix the domains. Maybe re-visiting the issue of having
mixed the domains. Buying it at the price involved should still be more
engineering decision than management decision. Try explaining it in terms
of lost or wasted hours.

 

[Marte Schwarz]

Hi Charlie,

Ah, but it doesn't help that I am married to her... ;-)

Then argue with the additional time you may spent with her... If this is not
a valid argument you should invest a lot more in your partnership, a lost
one will be much more expensive...

Marte

 

[krw]

Ah, but it doesn't help that I am married to her... ;-)

I start out a project with a wish list of tools. If management (or
SWMBO) doesn't buy into at least a minimal set of tools and a risk
statement (whine) regarding those not purchased then the project risk
is on their plate. In the case of a micro or FPGA I wouldn't start
without a full set of at least the vendor's tools and applicable
development board(s).

 

[Charlie E.]

I start out a project with a wish list of tools. If management (or
SWMBO) doesn't buy into at least a minimal set of tools and a risk
statement (whine) regarding those not purchased then the project risk
is on their plate. In the case of a micro or FPGA I wouldn't start
without a full set of at least the vendor's tools and applicable
development board(s).

Yes, but in this case, I already had the development kits on hand, and
was caught by the 'fine print' gotcha! Didn't see that, with all the
ad copy about debugging, the menu in the IDE for debugging, etc. there
was a requirement for a separate debugger. Was too used to chips with
on-chip debugging resources!

Charlie

 

[Charlie E.]

That problem doesn't arise in a true partnership. Me suspects that
Charlie whines, blaming SWMBO, rather than 'fessing up that it's HE
who doesn't want to spend the money ;-)

In our household we generally don't ask each other for permission,
though SWMBO will occasionally ask, "Can we afford...", when she has a
big project in mind.

...Jim Thompson

No, it is part of our 'teamwork.' She does the budgets, and takes
care of the finances. Simple truth is that we have a budget for
development of this product. The goal is to build at least 100 units
for preliminary sales this spring, and that means that it will take a
certain amount to manufacture them, even if I do a lot of the work. We
only have so much in the kitty, especially after taxes and all the
other overhead we expect in the next year. Unless we put in some more
money, it is going to be very tight... :-(

Charlie

 

[krw]

That problem doesn't arise in a true partnership. Me suspects that
Charlie whines, blaming SWMBO, rather than 'fessing up that it's HE
who doesn't want to spend the money ;-)

In our household we generally don't ask each other for permission,
though SWMBO will occasionally ask, "Can we afford...", when she has a
big project in mind.

With us it's more of a three stage thing. Small purchases (up to a
couple of hundred $$) is just a buy it if it's needed. Intermediate
purchases (less than $1000ish) it's more of an informational issue;
"I'm planning on buying ___". If there is no argument about timing,
then it's no big deal. Larger than $1K things are planned a little
more. She's going to have to wait a couple of years for her Mustang
ragtop. ;-) I want to get the house paid off first.

 

[krw]

Yes, but in this case, I already had the development kits on hand, and
was caught by the 'fine print' gotcha! Didn't see that, with all the
ad copy about debugging, the menu in the IDE for debugging, etc. there
was a requirement for a separate debugger. Was too used to chips with
on-chip debugging resources!

That's why you put in contingency toy^h^hools in the budget. ;-)

I appreciate your information here. I'm considering a PSoC for an
application but the PSoC3 isn't ready for prime time. If I go down
this route I'll make sure the FAE gives me all the tools I need. He's
shown himself to be pretty hungry for our business. ;-)

 

[krw]

My SWMBO has always lusted over having a Jag ragtop ;-)

You'd need a full time mechanic just to drive one on the weekends.

Now that we're in the South a ragtop makes a lot more sense. I'm sure
we'll end up with a 'stang within two years.