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Oldest Grandchild Graduates from High School

C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Many large programs, like the Adobe viewer and Word, are sheer crap.
Some, like PADS, are magnificent. Most software is upgrade/feature
driven because there's no money in just making the current version a
little better, in fixing the bugs. Microsoft is in fact in the bug
business, charging big bucks for operating systems that are slightly
less unstable then the "great" ones they used to sell.

Upgraded to Vista yet?

No, I haven't used anything Microsoft (beyond deminimis use) for about
ten years now. I am not expecting that to change.

....
.

That's not low probability. My wife's car did that to her, after the
battery died. We found the responsible box and ripped it out, but it
was a pain.

And did you ever have a car with ignition points? My old cars used to
do stuff like that regularly. My post '99 cars have been dead reliable.

But many of those "fundamentals" are electives. You can indeed get an
EE degree without learning much about hard stuff like electricity.

No you can't!

From the U of M website:
--------------------------

The basic EE curriculum requires 120 credits for graduation. The courses comprising these 120 credits can be categorized
into six broad areas: (1) Mathematics and the Basic Sciences, (2) Disciplinary Foundation of Electrical Engineering, (3)
Electrical Engineering Electives, (4) Non-EE Technical Electives, (5) Technical Writing, and (6) General Education
Requirements.



Mathematics and Basic Sciences

This area comprises 32 credits. These courses stress the mathematical techniques and scientific principles upon which
engineering is based. The courses are required and include the following:

MATH140: Calculus I (4 credits)
MATH141: Calculus II (4 credits)
MATH241: Calculus III (4 credits)
MATH246: Differential Equations for Scientists & Engineers (3 credits)
MATH4xx: (One 400-level mathematics course)
PHYS161: General Physics, Mechanics and Particles Dynamics (3 credits)
PHYS260/261: General Physics, Vibrations, Waves, Heat, and E/M (4 credits)
PHYS270/271: General Physics, Electrodynamics, Light, Relativity & Modern Physics (4 credits)
CHEM135: General Chemistry for Engineers (3 credits)

These courses contribute to the required one year of mathematics and basic sciences required of all ABET accredited
programs.



Disciplinary Foundation of Electrical Engineering

The Disciplinary Foundation is the core of the Electrical Engineering degree and amounts to 38 credits. Students are
required to take courses in circuits and microelectronics, electrophysics, computers/programming, and electrical
systems. These courses cover the fundamental electrical engineering concepts and laboratory skills common to any
professional working in the field.

ENEE114: Programming Concepts for Engineering (4 credits)
ENEE204: Basic Circuit Theory (3 credits)
ENEE206: Fundamental Electric and Digital Circuits Laboratory (2 credits)
ENEE241: Numerical Techniques in Engineering (3 credits)
ENEE244: Digital Logic Design (3 credits)
ENEE303: Analog and Digital Electronics (3 credits)
ENEE307: Electronic Circuits Design Laboratory (2 credits)
ENEE313: Introduction to Device Physics (3 credits)
ENEE322: Signal and System Theory (3 credits)
ENEE324: Engineering Probability (3 credits)
ENEE350: Computer Organization (3 credits)
ENEE380: Electromagnetic Theory (3 credits)
ENEE381: Electromagnetic Wave Propagation (3 credits)

--------------------------
I
guess I shouldn't complain... business is good.

If you are going to complain, at least know what you are complaining about!

-Chuck
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, I haven't used anything Microsoft (beyond deminimis use) for about
ten years now. I am not expecting that to change.

...

And did you ever have a car with ignition points? My old cars used to
do stuff like that regularly. My post '99 cars have been dead reliable.



No you can't!

From the U of M website:
--------------------------

The basic EE curriculum requires 120 credits for graduation. The courses comprising these 120 credits can be categorized
into six broad areas: (1) Mathematics and the Basic Sciences, (2) Disciplinary Foundation of Electrical Engineering, (3)
Electrical Engineering Electives, (4) Non-EE Technical Electives, (5) Technical Writing, and (6) General Education
Requirements.



Mathematics and Basic Sciences

This area comprises 32 credits. These courses stress the mathematical techniques and scientific principles upon which
engineering is based. The courses are required and include the following:

MATH140: Calculus I (4 credits)
MATH141: Calculus II (4 credits)
MATH241: Calculus III (4 credits)
MATH246: Differential Equations for Scientists & Engineers (3 credits)
MATH4xx: (One 400-level mathematics course)
PHYS161: General Physics, Mechanics and Particles Dynamics (3 credits)
PHYS260/261: General Physics, Vibrations, Waves, Heat, and E/M (4 credits)
PHYS270/271: General Physics, Electrodynamics, Light, Relativity & Modern Physics (4 credits)
CHEM135: General Chemistry for Engineers (3 credits)

These courses contribute to the required one year of mathematics and basic sciences required of all ABET accredited
programs.



Disciplinary Foundation of Electrical Engineering

The Disciplinary Foundation is the core of the Electrical Engineering degree and amounts to 38 credits. Students are
required to take courses in circuits and microelectronics, electrophysics, computers/programming, and electrical
systems. These courses cover the fundamental electrical engineering concepts and laboratory skills common to any
professional working in the field.

ENEE114: Programming Concepts for Engineering (4 credits)
ENEE204: Basic Circuit Theory (3 credits)
ENEE206: Fundamental Electric and Digital Circuits Laboratory (2 credits)
ENEE241: Numerical Techniques in Engineering (3 credits)
ENEE244: Digital Logic Design (3 credits)
ENEE303: Analog and Digital Electronics (3 credits)
ENEE307: Electronic Circuits Design Laboratory (2 credits)
ENEE313: Introduction to Device Physics (3 credits)
ENEE322: Signal and System Theory (3 credits)
ENEE324: Engineering Probability (3 credits)
ENEE350: Computer Organization (3 credits)
ENEE380: Electromagnetic Theory (3 credits)
ENEE381: Electromagnetic Wave Propagation (3 credits)

--------------------------
I

If you are going to complain, at least know what you are complaining about!

-Chuck

You keep trying to put words into my mouth, your favorite being "all".
As in all programmers, all programs, all engineering schools. Quit
doing that.

The last two ee's I hired did come from big-name schools where
electromagnetics and sigs/sys were electives. It's doubly ironic that
many ee's are skipping stuff like materials science and thermo and
electromagnetics, as many electronics designs are becoming dominated
by heat and propagation speed/crosstalk/emi issues.

I wonder if we are also graduating too many "ic designers"? I see a
lot of posts from students who are asking all sorts of cmos layout
questions but sound a little shaky as regards actual electricity.

Opinion, Jim?

John
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 16 May 2007 03:39:46 -0500,
Can you still get crystal sets? What's the modern equivalent
toy for getting started? (Probably

I remember sanding the insulation off a coil wound on a cardboard
tube so the slider arm would make contact.

There are some websites devoted to crystal sets, with sources for
stuff like 365 pF variable caps.
What's wrong with using a Basic Stamp to blink a LED? Why is that
worse than using a 555? Where would using a PIC fit on that scale?

Nothing wrong, except it won't teach you much about electronics.
I can dump on software people too, but there is a place for
software in the modern world of electronics. Teaching students
when to use software (and when not to) seems like a good idea to me.

Certainly. But I think an electrical engineer should be able to see
clear to the bottom, down to the physics. Starting you education in
the middle of the abstraction stack is an express ticket to
obsolescenceville.
At the low level, I usually think of them as state machines. Complicated
state machines are often better done as software.

State machines are magic. Interrupts are evil.
I used a PIC to blink a LED a while ago. It's got one input, a PPS
(Pulse Per Second) signal from a GPS. The LED is solid on if the PPS
ticks every second. The LED blinks if it is stuck high or low.

How do I do that with a 555?

555's are evil.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 16 May 2007 08:51:00 -0700, John Larkin

[snip]
I wonder if we are also graduating too many "ic designers"? I see a
lot of posts from students who are asking all sorts of cmos layout
questions but sound a little shaky as regards actual electricity.

Opinion, Jim?

John

We are indeed graduating too many IC designers who can't find their
own asshole with a mirror and a flashlight. And who think "design" is
done with a simulator.

I love it... my business is booming again ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
.
Oh please. This is like Girl Scouts telling scairy stories around the
campfire. ^^^^^^

Scary.

Cheers!
Rich Grise, Self-appointed Chief,
USENET Spelling Police ;-)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
---
Beginner's luck?

I found the fault once, in a radio, by isolating the fault down, on
the schematic, to a 10K resistor and then licking my fingers and
bridging the resistor with those fingers. The radio started
playing, I replaced the resistor and, AFAIK, it's still out there
working like it's supposed to.

A friend of mine used to do that. Then one day the doc diagnosed some
heart rhythm problems ...

Tube radios are of remarkable robustness. The old Astor BPJ here in the
office has lived in three continents now, is about 50 years old and all
it needed was a new IF tube. Plus a wee bias modification because I was
unable to find the exact same match and had to "Germanize" that stage.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
The said:
That's nuts. It is so entrenched in mil communications that nearly
everyone in such jobs knows, even the programmers... especially the
programmers, since they don't have time to wait around for a tech or
assembler to hook them up.

Aside from the fact that it is VERY easy to learn and know.


Repair, yes, but design is another matter. I was a bit surprised how
often I had to explain why, for example, there is a cascode transistor
in front of the TIA.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Scary.

Cheers!
Rich Grise, Self-appointed Chief,
USENET Spelling Police ;-)

Thank you, Miss Grise. I'll be more cariful in the futurr.

John
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
You keep trying to put words into my mouth, your favorite being "all".
As in all programmers, all programs, all engineering schools. Quit
doing that.

Really?

I did a search, and the word "all" appeared in only two places in the
above post, "...basic sciences required of *all* ABET accredited
programs." and in your complaint about me trying to put words into your
mouth.

I am pretty sure I read you correctly when you slammed all programmers
a month or so back, but you did it on abse, so it isn't archived.
You were frustrated at the time, but I have noticed a tendency for
you to paint with a broad brush... and to take single occurrences as
being the rule, rather than the exception (eg. your wife's car, one
incompetent programmer...).

The only significant difference I note in the EE program from when I took
it in the '70's is Chemistry has been reduced, I needed 8 credits inorganic,
and 4 credits organic, and Statics and Dynamics are gone. I consider both
to be a shame, because I learned many important lessons from each.
..
The last two ee's I hired did come from big-name schools where
electromagnetics and sigs/sys were electives. It's doubly ironic that
many ee's are skipping stuff like materials science and thermo and
electromagnetics, as many electronics designs are becoming dominated
by heat and propagation speed/crosstalk/emi issues.

Can you find an example of an accredited EE program that is missing
electromagnetics from the core curriculum? I have major doubts that
one exists, but if you can, I would be very interested in reading about
it. I have an uber bright son who will be attending college in a few years,
so I would like to know of any major schools I should eliminate from the
search.
I wonder if we are also graduating too many "ic designers"? I see a
lot of posts from students who are asking all sorts of cmos layout
questions but sound a little shaky as regards actual electricity.

I suspect that these requests are from students who are slackers, and
are reaching out out of desperation.

-Chuck
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Really?

I did a search, and the word "all" appeared in only two places in the
above post, "...basic sciences required of *all* ABET accredited
programs." and in your complaint about me trying to put words into your
mouth.

I am pretty sure I read you correctly when you slammed all programmers
a month or so back,

I did not, so you did not.
but you did it on abse, so it isn't archived.
Convenient.

You were frustrated at the time,

I was not. I rant about horrible programming on a regular basis.
but I have noticed a tendency for
you to paint with a broad brush...

It's a newsgroup; it ain't life.
and to take single occurrences as
being the rule, rather than the exception (eg. your wife's car, one
incompetent programmer...).

I can't help what you think you notice or what you think you remember.
The only significant difference I note in the EE program from when I took
it in the '70's is Chemistry has been reduced, I needed 8 credits inorganic,
and 4 credits organic, and Statics and Dynamics are gone. I consider both
to be a shame, because I learned many important lessons from each.

OK, now extrapolate to not taking electromagnetics or signals/systems
or thermo.
.

Can you find an example of an accredited EE program that is missing
electromagnetics from the core curriculum?

If you want to call me a liar, do your own research.

John
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Convenient.

Yes it is. I even checked my Sent archive, but I had flushed it
around that time frame. It probably exists in your Sent folder,
though.
I was not. I rant about horrible programming on a regular basis.

Oh seriously John, you were telling us all about how bad the
programmer that worked on the code for your arbitrary pulse
generator was, and how you were going buckle down, do some all
nighters and write it yourself. If that isn't frustration talking,
then I guess I don't know the meaning of the word.
It's a newsgroup; it ain't life.

Perhaps, but the stuff you write, like the stuff I write, is
a snapshot of how you think... or perhaps react.
I can't help what you think you notice or what you think you remember.

??? You just told us, and I quote:

CH>> If you are worrying about your car "immobilizing" and leaving you in a
CH>> snow storm, then your life is indeed dominated by low-probability
CH>> fears.
JL> That's not low probability. My wife's car did that to her, after the
JL> battery died. We found the responsible box and ripped it out, but it
JL> was a pain.

You have told us of a one time occurrence in some miscellaneous car your
wife was driving, but from that one experience, you seem to think it is
not a low probability issue. Why, because it happened to you?
OK, now extrapolate to not taking electromagnetics or signals/systems
or thermo.

I can easily make that extrapolation, but that isn't the issue. From the
casual searching around I have done, Electromagnetics is a core part of all
of the EE programs I have found.
If you want to call me a liar, do your own research.

I am not calling you a liar. You have access to the names of the
"big-name" schools that graduates EE's without Electromagnetics.
I thought you might be willing to enlighten us as to which schools
those were.

As I told you, my searching found Electromagnetics to be a core part
of all of the EE programs I looked into. I am seriously interested in the
programs you found that didn't include Electromagnetics. I want to
be sure that my son avoids those schools.

-Chuck
 

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