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Old expired '83 brain needs rework

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting and Repair' started by tedstruk, Nov 17, 2016.

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  1. tedstruk

    tedstruk

    475
    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    I am a bad choice for electronics assistant. I can put things together well, and can take them apart equally as well. I have a basic understanding of electronics, circuits and how it all works. I cannot program my own boards yet, but I know some BASIC, and I am internet literate. I have a handful of electronic parts i have scavanged from boards, and I am in way too deep for my feeble old mind to realize. Electronics is a relief for me. i like watching-making things electronic work. I got a really great buy on an old 83 motorcycle that has a hitachi 2 connector (14 pin) TCI(transistor controlled ignitor) on it that I fear is failing. Everything else checks out,,,that means the TCI is not working right. Anyway, I want to check it out, I have a cheap hantek 1008c scope, and a bosch vom. I know how to use them. But...I don't know what I am looking for! and I am very embarassed! So assume for a sec that you have this black box that has 2 male ports looking at you... the one on the left has 6 contacts( they connect the 4 center tapped field coil sensors-2 points on each coil, totalling 2 coils and 4 points- picking up the rotation from the flywheel to the TCI and a ground) And the one on the right has 8 contacts( they send the firing order individually to the ignition coils for sparking the resistors at the right point in the timing) The board is non-removable...not that I couldn't remove it... but the contacts are waterproofed into the plastic case and I would have to clean the solder off the board with a solder sucker possibly damaging the board. KWUESTION? In your opinion,
    1. is it important to access the board so that you can use the bikes onboard systems to test it? like would you cut the plastic case open on one side to access the board.... OR
    2. should I bite the bullet, dig out the solder sucker, disconnect the board and build an elecctronic testing stations from what I haev on hand(I would hate to ruin it or discharge the charged caps it may have on it... )

    It is a Hitachi 14-17 26h Venture Royale TCI, and I can't find any specs, schems or repair kits for it. The Venture Royale was a combined work of Yamaha, Mitsubishi and Hitachi. It has Asahi malable steel wheels if it is of any brain food to you........
     
  2. tedstruk

    tedstruk

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    Jan 7, 2012
    I found a TCI schematic... on a web site called SPORTDEVICES. They have a compiler code in c and in asm and the asm in zip for download.
     
  3. Bluejets

    Bluejets

    4,652
    983
    Oct 5, 2014
    What makes you think the original ignition is failing?........oh, and '83 ain't old.....:)
     
  4. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    3,070
    1,299
    Aug 21, 2015
    Sir tedstruk . . . .

    Is this not being your unit . . .just being less all of its ancillary plug ins.
    And do you say that after removing the 4 corner screws, that a board with all of its components is not visible . . .OR . . is it showing to be a totally potted unit ?

    This must be your other data found :

    http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/ignition.htm


    DEPICTIONS:

    [​IMG]



    73s de Edd
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  5. tedstruk

    tedstruk

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    Jan 7, 2012
    yes sweety that is the unit....
    It has a nice upside down PC board in it that is hard soldered to the contacts that are sticking out of the case in those plastic connector housings in the picture.

    When you take the cover off, there is the back side of the oriental electronics engineers nightmares from hitachi-mistubishi-yamaha!

    The motorcycle was not firing on one of the plugs...(sparkplugs?) and then slowly failed on all the others following a proper adjustment of the carbs. (sorry I'm a mechanic and setting the carbs right does not make the spark quit) so would you cut the case to get into the components and test them, or would you desolder the 14 pins and remove the board for testing?
     
  6. tedstruk

    tedstruk

    475
    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    Dear blue,
    A motorcycle is considered antique when it is 35. 83 is antique at 36.
    when a bike aint starting, and everything checks out except the TCI.... well
    the TCI is probably in need of a rework.


    Hey did you know that the TCI is the first 12v ignition that does not require high voltage to fire it? It is a 12v system and doesn't require the 48v ??!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2016
  7. tedstruk

    tedstruk

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    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    What do the numbers mean on there?
     
  8. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,799
    1,939
    Sep 5, 2009
    which numbers ?
     
  9. tedstruk

    tedstruk

    475
    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    Ingition Type
    TID14-17 26H-10

    not $125(dude!)
     
  10. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,799
    1,939
    Sep 5, 2009
    it's obviously the model number
    what searching have you done so far to find info using those numbers ?
     
  11. tedstruk

    tedstruk

    475
    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    No data available anywhere....
    They don't make them anymore. There are few old ones around.
    The hack shops want about 300 a piece for their version of them.
    The 83-84 VMAX 1200 suposedly uses a compatible one.
    Its a transistor controlled, hall effect sensor operated, ignition timing, and spark firing device. All in one neat clean little package that is extremely hard to find info on.
     
  12. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    3,070
    1,299
    Aug 21, 2015
    Sir tedstruk . . . .

    Working with your given info . . . . this unit is getting its working power from 12VDC . . .batt? . . . voltage.
    Most other cycles rely upon an additional stinking parasitic winding on the magneto.

    Is a motorcycle schematic of the wiring going to these side connections on the unit two plugs being available.?
    So as to then relate incoming connections to the assigned points that they connect to inside of the module.

    Do we have an individual spark coil for each cylinder externally ?
    How many cylinders on this cycle? .


    Give us all of its full identification . . . .


    When our above mentioned cover panel is removed, do we then see the components side of the board or all of the interconnecting foil path sides ?

    73s de Edd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2016
  13. tedstruk

    tedstruk

    475
    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    Yeah its all like I said, it has 2 center tapped field coils that are identifiable on a wiring diagram I download from the net last year. It wass the only color one I could find. The field coils are driven through the center tap and feed directly back to 5 of the 6 pin connector on the black box. The colors are Orange for #1 Gray for #2 Yellow for #3 and White for #4. The Black wire is the center tap for all of the above, and there is one unfilled space in the loom that is replaced by the safety/kill switches(side stand up/down, and emergency fall over) 4 coils, fired by the black box, powered by the starting circuit relay.
     
  14. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    3,070
    1,299
    Aug 21, 2015
    Sir tedstruk . . . . . . .

    How far would the assumption be off . . . that this is being your olde tyme Yamahauler V15 unit ?

    This was someones concentrated effort on the associative areas of a starting problem, but we
    can certainly use it for its OTHER information.

    Directing attention to the top left quadrant where you see 4 spark coils side by side with a common 12VDC fed to them.
    Then the Or-Gy-Y and Wh lines going into the TCI unit are just waiting for their lines to be grounded to make a proper timed spark.
    As you go further around the module next is being its ground.
    Then a shared common of all of the sensor coils, followed by the individual outputs of each individual sensor coils.
    Then there are 3 following connections that go into what commonly seems to be their designation of an electronics module.
    (Which I see, that in some places, can be as simple as a diode pack, as you see down at the right bottom corner alternator and its DC feed made into the battery.)
    Lastly is the B/W connection that makes an additional ground through a relay, which I might assume to be related to a kill function.
    That is making the magical number of a total of 14 wiring connections into the TCI module .
    Do these wire color codes properly relate to the ones found on your two connectors .
    If so, that is one big part of the mystery solved by being able to associate the totally unknown connections on the module to their end circuitry wiring connections.

    If so, I could see a simple testing of the integrity of the unit.
    But you also need to identify that last minor ancillary module just mentioned.

    TECHNO-STRATION:

    [​IMG]


    73's de Edd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2016
  15. tedstruk

    tedstruk

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    Jan 7, 2012
    After dedicated attempts at recollecting the reason I posted here first I found that between the numbers there are spaces, at which in each space is a small plastic box or case inwhich there are some components that must be failing cause everything else is good. The diagram above(god forbid) is a diagram of the vmax wiring. The box in the up from center is the thing I want the schematic for... but then who needs a schematic when they have the board RIGHT?!!? So the question I originally asked was---- Would you hack the plastic box, and repair it later?..... or .....Would you desolder the pinouts and remove the board?
     
  16. tedstruk

    tedstruk

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    Jan 7, 2012
    One last annoying question....
    Whats inductive resistance and injection resistance?
    is that like ohms loss in one and ohms gain in the other?
     
  17. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    13,799
    1,939
    Sep 5, 2009
    never heard of either of those

    inductive resistance ? maybe you mean inductive reactance ?


    injection resistance? never heard of it did you see these 2 terms written somewhere ? .... show a pic of the article page or a link
     
  18. tedstruk

    tedstruk

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    Jan 7, 2012
    The TCI manufacturer that I found.... the spec sheet of the TCI tried to upload the pic. upload failed.

    RESISTANCE OF PRIMARY WINDING COILS -
    CDI- capacitance, resistance 0.1 - 1.5 ohm
    TCI - Inductive, resistance 0.2 - 25 ohms
    TCI - Injection, resistance 0.2 -25 ohms

    duh... kind of squared dum ass on me.
     
  19. 73's de Edd

    73's de Edd

    3,070
    1,299
    Aug 21, 2015
    Sir tedstruk . . . . . . .

    Modus operandus . . . . .simplus . . . . .evaluatum

    Initial consideration, that the unit is all intact with its wiring and TIC components and out in the garage / shop and otherwise . . .its being all ready to run.
    AND that you have a HOT battery.
    Pull all four plugs and bind them all together as a tight cluster of 4.
    Take bare copper hookup / buss wire and interleave between all of the threaded ends to get a good common grounding between them all . . . . and then that wire routes over and grounds to the frame ground of the cycle.
    Reconnect the 4 high voltage spark wires to all of the plugs.
    Now you need either to be in VERY-VERY-VERY subdued lighting OR additionally make a cardboard shroud (internally flat black spray painted) that covers the spark ends of the 4 plugs about 6 inches.
    NOW . . . . you are about to be able to evaluate all of the sensors , the sensor conditioning circuitry that feeds each of the 4 IGBT coil driver transistors and finally, the 4 HV spark coils of the unit and their associative spark plugs.

    Soooooo you get key in hand . . .and correct me if wrong . . . .kick stand up . . . to disengage its kill switch.
    Press ye olde starter upper, in order to crank the unit . . . . no . . .correction . . . SPI N N N N N N N N N the unit since you will no longer have any cylinder compression encumbrance impeding you.
    If all is well in your TCI world . . .. you will then be seeing a virtual ring of fire around all of your plugs.

    Thasssssit . . . . . . and even with your not even apprehending nor fully encompassing or even worrying about . . . .both . . . the implied " inductive resistance and injection resistance " aspects.

    Now . . . . .Go Dog Go.


    73's de Edd
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2016
  20. tedstruk

    tedstruk

    475
    7
    Jan 7, 2012
    How can I tell if the TCI I have is solidstate or not?
     
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