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Offshore manufacturing

A

Adrian Jansen

Jan 1, 1970
0
When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.
 
R

Rich The Newsgropup Wacko

Jan 1, 1970
0
When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

No. You're fucked. Give up. There is nothing but thieves out there. Pull
up the drawbridge, and quit trying to pretend to be someone who would
presume to intrude into the realm of the monied.

Sorry.
Rich
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Adrian Jansen <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

I don't know one. You could omit a custom component that the
manufacturer can't clone. That stops them selling any more.

The work-around is that the mfr. claims to have a lot of failed devices
(and will even show you some) and pleads for replacements. (;-)
 
R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian said:
When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

1)have a custom part in the design that you deliver.
2)load the firmware at your site afterwards
3)mount a special part at your site afterwards
4)deliver every part for the assembly and be there then.

Rene
 
B

budgie

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Adrian Jansen <[email protected]>


I don't know one. You could omit a custom component that the
manufacturer can't clone. That stops them selling any more.

The work-around is that the mfr. claims to have a lot of failed devices
(and will even show you some) and pleads for replacements. (;-)

The only way of addressing that is to separate the manufacture and sales
processes. Interpose a "send it back to me so I can do QC and insert the
widget" phase. That way:
(1) they can't sell more than you process.
(2) they can't report high failure rates to get more of the critical widgets.
(3) unless they can R/E the widget, there is no point in them making more than X
units.
 
L

legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

Pick an established firm with a good rack record, and a lot of
customers to lose if their rep is tarnished.

Pirating is the activity of pirates.

RL
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

You can't ensure it. The more you retain some control (eg. by
supplying programmed micros or something) the better you will have
this covered, but it can affect efficiencies. You could avoid places
where this tends to happen, but the extra costs might cost you more
than the piracy. Even some very large Western companies have been
bitten. The barriers to entry are not that large in many cases, and
consist of tooling and development costs, mostly.

Especially if they are making AND selling it, with only a piece of
paper from you, you can expect issues. For example, they may design a
slightly different (better) unit than yours and sell it for 20% less,
either directly (as happened in one case I know of- the company was
already making similar products, so they could't really agree to
exclusivity) or through some kind of front company or trading company.

IME, the basic principle of maintaining honesty in such dealings is to
ensure that, at any given time, the profit they make by being honest
exceeds that could be made by not doing so. May sound trite, or
difficult to maintain such a situation, but that's my opinion. In some
cases, a partnership with a known and trusted person on the ground may
be required.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Jan 1, 1970
0
You could omit a custom component that the
manufacturer can't clone. That stops them selling any more.

Oh, they'll sell them, then they come back to you as warranty failures.
Funny how you got 30 returned items from a customer that only bought
one...

Tim.
 
L

Leon Heller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian Jansen said:
When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do people
make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we give a
manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and he returns
the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 * x, how do we
know, especially when the product may be sold in a third country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

There was a useful article on this topic a few months ago in EDN, IIRC.

Leon
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Rene,
1)have a custom part in the design that you deliver.
2)load the firmware at your site afterwards
3)mount a special part at your site afterwards


Also, make sure you blow the JTAG fuse, set the boot loader password or
use whatever protection your devices on the board afford. That can
create a situation where the cost of reverse engineering may become
prohibitive.

4)deliver every part for the assembly and be there then.


That can get pretty expensive.

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello Rene,


Also, make sure you blow the JTAG fuse, set the boot loader password or
use whatever protection your devices on the board afford. That can
create a situation where the cost of reverse engineering may become
prohibitive.

Presupposed.


That can get pretty expensive.

Yes, this kind of measure is better done somewhere
locally. But it works in terms of IP protection.
The assembler just has to know SO-8 for a part and
you deliver the belt.

I propose to have a look at the production run anyway.
Whenever I was having a look I learnt a lot.

Meaning I see advantages to produce locally.

Rene
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Rene,
The assembler just has to know SO-8 for a part and
you deliver the belt.


That's usually all they (should) care to know about unless you make them
do a full end test.
I propose to have a look at the production run anyway.
Whenever I was having a look I learnt a lot.

Meaning I see advantages to produce locally.


Sure. But when local biz gets taxed or regulated up to kazoo it's not
going to work. I still hope Arnold fixes some of that in CA. Most of the
stuff we design here is being produced in China.

Regards, Joerg
 
A

Adrian Jansen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ken said:
He could use a robot in New Zealand, but I think Helen Clarke is busy at
present.

Ken

We have plenty of our own robots :) but yes, the idea was to move the
manufacturing to the US, mainly for ease of supply into that market.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.
 
K

Ken Taylor

Jan 1, 1970
0
Adrian Jansen said:
We have plenty of our own robots :) but yes, the idea was to move the
manufacturing to the US, mainly for ease of supply into that market.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

"Rule of Law" is a tad more established in USA than in parts of Asia, so
you're on a better thing going that way. :) AusTrade (or whatever it's
called these days) could give you leads to industry organizations, and now
that the NG knows that USA is the intended destination I'm sure there'll be
plenty of first-hand recommendations.

Cheers.

Ken
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Rule of Law" is a tad more established in USA than in parts of Asia, so
you're on a better thing going that way. :) AusTrade (or whatever it's
called these days) could give you leads to industry organizations, and now
that the NG knows that USA is the intended destination I'm sure there'll be
plenty of first-hand recommendations.

Cheers.

Ken

Yup, although "offshore" may be technically correct in referring to
the US from your perspective, it's probably not the first situtation
that pops into our minds. ;-)



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
K

Ken Taylor

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spehro Pefhany said:
Yup, although "offshore" may be technically correct in referring to
the US from your perspective, it's probably not the first situtation
that pops into our minds. ;-)



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
http://www.speff.com

Adrian (OP) may be able to help you if you want to offshore some
manufacturing and design.....

Ken
 
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