Oct 28th rossi 1 mw cold fusion test....

[sno]

Still looking good...

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/


--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.

 

[eric gisse]

Still looking good...

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/

"Once the reaction chambers got up to temperature, they were maintained by
the heat produced by the reaction. I'm not sure why they kept the generator
running after that, but I would guess it was for back-up or safety."

*sigh*

Here I was hoping Rossi wasn't full of shit, and there we are.

"Apparently, gamma radiation is produced during the reaction, which is
shielded by water, iron, lead, and a final coating on the apparatus."

Not with that level of shielding. There would be measurable non-background
counts if this were real. Too bad its' a long con.

 

[vaughn]

Still looking good...

I would love to believe. Really I would! But I don't. At least, not yet.

Sorry, but I find this test (in which the system allegedly put out 470KW whilst
connected to an obviously running 500 KW generator) to be spectacularly
unconvincing.

"Probably the biggest opening for skeptics will be the continually running
genset that is probably rated for 500 kW (my guess), and appears to have been
connected by cables to the E-Cat. "Where's the mystery?" So knock yourselves
out, skeptics. It's the customer who has to be happy, and apparently this one
was satisfied that those cables were not contributing to the 470 kW output
during self-sustaining mode."

Surry, but the alleged happiness of some anonymous and possibly fictional
customer hardly constitutes proof of anything.

Waiting for Morris's results...

Vaughn

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Still looking good...

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/

How's that? They won't let anyone see what's inside their black boxes?

How do they expect an endothermic reaction like Nickel to Copper is
going to *produce* energy?

Yousuf Khan

 

[Prai Jei]

Yousuf Khan set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

How's that? They won't let anyone see what's inside their black boxes?

How do they expect an endothermic reaction like Nickel to Copper is
going to *produce* energy?

That's not the aim. They want it to produce *money* - for them.

 

[eric gisse]

How's that? They won't let anyone see what's inside their black boxes?

How do they expect an endothermic reaction like Nickel to Copper is
going to *produce* energy?

Yousuf Khan

This is what is known as a "scam".

 

[profIJM]

Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.

....until thrown into doubt by an apparently contradictory observation

 

[eric gisse]

I would love to believe. Really I would! But I don't. At least,
not yet.

Sorry, but I find this test (in which the system allegedly put out
470KW whilst connected to an obviously running 500 KW generator) to
be spectacularly unconvincing.

"Probably the biggest opening for skeptics will be the continually
running genset that is probably rated for 500 kW (my guess), and
appears to have been connected by cables to the E-Cat. "Where's the
mystery?" So knock yourselves out, skeptics. It's the customer who
has to be happy, and apparently this one was satisfied that those
cables were not contributing to the 470 kW output during
self-sustaining mode."

Surry, but the alleged happiness of some anonymous and possibly
fictional customer hardly constitutes proof of anything.

Waiting for Morris's results...

Vaughn

[reading/posting @ alt.solar.thermal]

I'm disappointed that Rossi did not present a demonstration adequate
to convince all reasonable skeptics.

I'm flattered that Vaughn might consider any result I might produce to
be worth waiting for - but I think it'd be a GoodThing^TM if more
people conducted their own tests and made their results public.

My efforts are painfully slow. Nearly every aspect of this thing calls
for knowledge and skills I don't have.

[...]

I don't know what your role is in all this, so I'll just proceed as if
you have one.

If convincing skeptics is the goal, have Rossi or someone else put an
inductive loop around the generator leads so the current can be known at
all times. Additionally, have a voltmeter hooked up physically so
voltage can be known at all times.

Then, P = IV.

If P_generator << P_blackbox then YHATZEE! People will take Rossi
marginally more seriously and then people like me won't be able to see
that the generator was running the whole time and be entirely right for
laughing at the scam.

I, however, expect P_generator ~ P_blackbox because it is my personal
opinion its' a long con designed to bilk money out of that investor
assuming he actually exists. If the investor doesn't exist, one will
soon.

 

[Bob F]

Still looking good...

I would love to believe. Really I would! But I don't. At least,
not yet.

Sorry, but I find this test (in which the system allegedly put out
470KW whilst connected to an obviously running 500 KW generator) to
be spectacularly unconvincing.

"Probably the biggest opening for skeptics will be the continually
running genset that is probably rated for 500 kW (my guess), and
appears to have been connected by cables to the E-Cat. "Where's the
mystery?" So knock yourselves out, skeptics. It's the customer who
has to be happy, and apparently this one was satisfied that those
cables were not contributing to the 470 kW output during
self-sustaining mode."

Surry, but the alleged happiness of some anonymous and possibly
fictional customer hardly constitutes proof of anything.

Waiting for Morris's results...

Vaughn

[reading/posting @ alt.solar.thermal]

I'm disappointed that Rossi did not present a demonstration adequate
to convince all reasonable skeptics.

I'm flattered that Vaughn might consider any result I might produce
to be worth waiting for - but I think it'd be a GoodThing^TM if more
people conducted their own tests and made their results public.

My efforts are painfully slow. Nearly every aspect of this thing
calls for knowledge and skills I don't have.

[...]

I don't know what your role is in all this, so I'll just proceed as if
you have one.

Morris's chosen role is to try to create one of Rossi's devices on his own,
seemingly from just the published information and his own creative spirit.

 

[Curbie]

Morris,

Have you gotten, and had any time to play around with the Ardunio
yet???

Curbie

 

[amdx]

-----
* If anyone would like to play along, I could use some help with a
combination heater/temperature sensor using an up to 16-inch (406.4mm)
nichrome wire threaded through ceramic cores (inside a 1/4x4-inch copper
tube that's closed on one end) with one side connected to ground and the
other to a SPST relay so that when the relay is powered, the wire will
be heated with AC power; and when the relay is unpowered, the resistance
of the wire can be sensed to determine its temperature. The sensing
circuit needs to produce an output voltage that can be fed to an Arduino
A/D converter with a 5VDC Vref and sharing the ground connection. Heater
power needs to be something that can be reasonably derived from 120VAC
60Hz mains to provide power in the 250W neighborhood. I just uploaded a
photo of some ceramic cores to

http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion/Core4(500x400).jpg

Hi Morris,
Not sure I clearly understand what you want, but I'll stick my neck out!
After you have heated the wire then you want to measure the resistance
of the wire and from that deduce the temperature. I would want to
totally isolate the AC from the resistance measurement. A DPDT relay
would do that. (isolate both ends of the wire. I don't know about
connecting AC neutral to 5v ground, might be ok, but...)
Unless you cycle the relay for heat/measure modes, I don't see how you
will know when to stop heating. So, you have the relay on some clock
cycle, (heat 5 seconds measure temperature 1 second) then when the
proper temp is reached the relay measures temp only until temp drops
below some threshold then your heat/measure cycle starts again.
To measure the resistance of the wire, you will drive some DC current
through the wire and a series (sense) resistor and measure the voltage
across the sense resistor. The voltage will probably need to be
amplified before going to the Arduino.
There my be a way to sense the AC current to the wire and know the
temp of the wire but any AC voltage fluctuations to you home may cause
errors. I'm sure there is a way to compensate for that though.

Ok, have I got the basic idea?
Fill me in.
Thanks, Mikek

 

[vaughn]

* If anyone would like to play along, I could use some help with a combination
heater/temperature sensor using an up to 16-inch (406.4mm) nichrome wire
threaded through ceramic cores (inside a 1/4x4-inch copper tube that's closed
on one end) with one side connected to ground and the other to a SPST relay so
that when the relay is powered, the wire will be heated with AC power; and
when the relay is unpowered, the resistance of the wire can be sensed to
determine its temperature.

I would urge you to reconsider that approach. If you use a standard temperature
probe (perhaps right inside that pipe with the heater), you not only gain the
advantage of using some standard "pre engineered" temperature sensing circuit,
you also can dispense with that relay and easily control the heater with a
standard SSR (Solid State Relay) The varying contact resistance of that relay
would always introduce some "noise" into your temperature readings..

Vaughn

 

[Curbie]

I have an Arduino Mega 2560

Morris,

I have an Arduino Uno to read 3 temperature probes, control 2 on/off
valves, 2 on/off pumps, and a on/off heating element, I want a stand
alone controller so its control I/O is 1 five position cursor and
select type switch, 1 menu button, and a 4x20 LCD display.

I got it earlier this year and have just been stepping through the
tutorials so far, but am just starting collaboration which should keep
me busy through the winter.

Lots of fun, enjoy your journey.

Curbie

 

[g]

On 10/29/11 11:09 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:

Argh!


SPST should have been SPDT! Sorry.

Not to discourage your effort, but I think using the Arduino to read the
resistance of the wire might be too inaccurate. You are basically
engineering a temperature measurement system from scratch. Lots of
testing needed first before implementing the thing.

And mixing AC and DC makes me shudder. At least use a scope to check
that no harmonics/noise from the AC side sneaks up on the Arduino
circuitry...

Why not use a thermocouple? These sensors measure really high
temperatures. As a start, look at http://www.sparkfun.com/products/306

Good luck.

 

[Bob F]

You've pretty well nailed it. DPDT relay it'll be, with hot/neutral
for the AC heater power and ground/5VDC for sensing. Some other DC
voltage can be used, but I already have decently-regulated 5V
available and would prefer not to build/buy another power supply if
it can be avoided.
The relay power will be software controlled with allowance made for
make/break latencies - and I plan to capture the A/D value while
heater power is off. This approach should allow me to vary the
heating duty cycle and to exercise a (hopefully useful) control of
the heating rate - then continuously monitor the reactor temperature
if/after "ignition" takes place.

If ignition occurs, there will be another latency as heat is
transferred from the containment vessel into the heater tube - but I
think that situation would exist for any affordable strategy.

The change in resistance looks like it'll be small, and I guessed that
an op-amp circuit might be useful to produce a larger temperature
swing. A temperature range of 25-537°C would probably be a sensible
design target. (I'm /aware/ of op-amps, but I've never designed a
circuit that actually /used/ one of the little buggers.)

A linear output would be "nice to have", but isn't essential - I don't
think a table look-up/interpolation is likely to overburden even the
little Arduino.

-----

For my first go at this problem, I plan to start at a very low H2
pressure and increase it incrementally. At each pressure setting I'll
start at a low temperature setting and increase the temperature
incrementally to some safe limit (probably 250°C) and watch for any
sign that ignition may have taken place. If so, then I plan to remove
heater power and check for a self-sustaining reaction. If the
reaction isn't self-sustaining, I'll continue from where I left off
in the heating sequence.

If I reach the safe limit without ignition, I'll let the apparatus
cool down and then repeat at the next pressure increment.

The entire exercise is to discover whether a self-sustaining reaction
can be initiated and, if so, the minimum (pressure,temperature)
values.

I would think that thermocouple temperature monitoring/control would make a lot
more sense that using a relay to disconnect the power so you can measure the
resistance. The time delay of the relay approach drastically lessens the
controlability. There are plenty of thermocouple temperature controllers
available.

 

[eric gisse]

[...]

Morris's chosen role is to try to create one of Rossi's devices on his
own, seemingly from just the published information and his own
creative spirit.

Since Rossi isn't saying, that does strike me as a unique challenge.

The most hilarious outcome would be if Morris deciphered the trade secret
in the event that Rossi isn't full of shit [unlikely] and started selling
some devices on his own or just published how to make it.

Patents on stuff like this will be granted....if there's a working model.

Otherwise...lol

 

[Mho]

The US Patent Office grants patents on anything, even if it is impossible or
doesn't exist. Patents average less than 5 hours of Officer time and they
don't have time to actually investigate anything. The patent holders signs
"prior art" agreements.

US patents have become a joke and have to be rescinded frequently due to
legal actions.


-----------
"eric gisse" wrote in message
Since Rossi isn't saying, that does strike me as a unique challenge.

The most hilarious outcome would be if Morris deciphered the trade secret
in the event that Rossi isn't full of shit [unlikely] and started selling
some devices on his own or just published how to make it.

Patents on stuff like this will be granted....if there's a working model.

Otherwise...lol

 

[eric gisse]

I'm not attempting to reverse-engineer what Rossi claims: a device
fueled with nickel and hydrogen and which requires a proprietary
catalyst.

I thought about all I've heard about catalysts and decided that if a
Ni/H fusion reaction is possible, then it should proceed at some
(pressure,temperature) combination with or without a catalyst. (Think
about it - in how many ways can an H+ ion be aligned?)

Nickle-Hydrogen fusion has a significantly higher threshhold than other
possible combinations.

 

[amdx]

Snips

If ignition occurs, there will be another latency as heat is transferred
from the containment vessel into the heater tube - but I think that
situation would exist for any affordable strategy.

The change in resistance looks like it'll be small, and I guessed that
an op-amp circuit might be useful to produce a larger temperature swing.
A temperature range of 25-537°C would probably be a sensible design
target. (I'm /aware/ of op-amps, but I've never designed a circuit that
actually /used/ one of the little buggers.)
think a table look-up/interpolation is likely to overburden even the
little Arduino.

-----

For my first go at this problem, I plan to start at a very low H2
pressure and increase it incrementally. At each pressure setting I'll
start at a low temperature setting and increase the temperature
incrementally to some safe limit (probably 250°C)
The entire exercise is to discover whether a self-sustaining reaction
can be initiated and, if so, the minimum (pressure,temperature) values.

Hey Morris, is there a reason you don't want to stick a thermocouple in
the tube for your temp measurements as others have suggested? It would
sure simplify this section, and, you could get lots of design help on
sci.electronics.design to raise the thermocouple output voltage nearer
5v at 537*C.
Also I suspect you have thought that if the temp sustains itself or
starts to run away, your Ardiuno will sense this and start limiting
hydrogen input and/or pump more water.
Mikek

 

[amdx]

The worst case scenario would be failure to initiate a fusion process,
which would be disappointing but not discouraging. It would send me back
to work on my (original) primary project with only a solar heat source.
A working fusion reactor would add portability/mobility which looks
desirable...

Sense you brought it up, I'm curious why you think fusion will start
without the undisclosed catalyst. Do think the catalyst is just a ruse?
I was thinking some of this was design for when the catalyst becomes
known you will be ready.
Hoping for your success,
Mikek