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noob here.... can i use a generator to power my electric motor (woo woo)

Discussion in 'Sensors and Actuators' started by chisechi, Nov 4, 2014.

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  1. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    what im thinking of is a system that uses the smallest electric motor to power a generator of house capacities...... but the motor being powered by the same generator.
    I know you all will say HELL NO to this idea as your scared to put thought into it, but if there is a way.... even if we get close but not with the ability to power a house ill be happy :)

    so the question is..... can i do it??

    (system as follows so far; Electric motor-flywheel-gearbox(automatic)-flywheel-generator-battery packs-house/electric motor)

    there will be a diesel motor attached to the gearbox on an electric clutch to be used when motor is over capacity

    size and money should not be concidered. so throw knowledge into it and please dont say no till ALL options have been exhausted
     
  2. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    I'm saying no right away.
    If you feed a motor directly from a generator, that will work... but the losses will compound and you will end up with a stationary motor and generator if you try to turn the very same generator with the motor that it's powering.
    Converting Mechanical motion to electricity is not perfect, and doing the reverse is not perfect either... so even IF the conversion was at 100%, as soon as you introduce any kind of resistance in the lines, or on the motor/generator shaft, the device will stop.
    You cannot exceed 100% conversion, which would be required to do any work or provide any energy from said device. (How long does a spinning top stay spinning... even if it's floating in a magnetic field?... it eventually stops without an external source of energy. Same is true here.)
     
  3. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    obviously it doesn't have to be an 'Electric' motor that powers the system..... could be air powered, water powered, could even include the flux capacitor.... get it to 88MPH and off it goes... but being serious, it needs to be compact with no fluctuation on power input to the generator (wind/water turbines stop when wind/water stops, air compressors/water jets dont stop unless they run low on pressure)
     
  4. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    Your very first line states that you want to make a loop and power a motor with a generator to power the same motor.

    Being serious. This wont work. Even if your generator powers a water pump or air pump, the resulting energy in the water or air or electricity will not be enough to turn the generator.
    If I am misunderstanding, then please show us a diagram of your planned setup.

    Alternatively, there are plenty of systems that will generate electricity with wind, water, heat, or light. They all need to cope with a varying degree of input power. This is usually handled with electronics to gain a better efficiency, and excess energy is stored in batteries to be used later when the provided power is too low.
     
  5. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
  6. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    OK, so using that logic. How much energy can you store in this setup?
    There are no components to store electricity, so the majority of energy would be store kinetic energy.
    Each iteration will loose a considerable amount of energy. This device would simply waste energy and would no conserve any of it, let alone generate any.
    I'm not sure what you are trying to figure out anymore.
     
  7. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    is there a motor that can supply enough 'torque' for the generator to turn and do its job at full capacity but use less Volts, Amps and watts than what the generator can supply?
    which so far the motor uses less (30KW 400VDC for motor - 45KW 400VAC from generator)
    what am i missing to not allow this to work :(
     
  8. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    this question has been thrown up because you CAN run a car WITHOUT a battery.... just using its alternator...... so.... HOW can it, if it needs to power itself?
     
  9. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    What you are missing is that 'Power' is the product of Voltage AND Current.
    It's this combined power that you need... so even if you can spit out more voltage than required... you would be short of amperage... You can't just overshoot one, and hope it still works.
    I think this is what you are missing.

    This works because the gas engine in a vehicle can produce more power than absolutely required by the vehicle. This excess power is turned into electricity by the alternator.
    There is a limit though... if the alternator is too large, it will take too much power for the gas engine to turn. The remaining power will go to the wheels of the vehicle, but the vehicle will feel gutless... because less of that energy can turn the wheels now.
     
  10. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    I guess another way to look at it, would be the conversion itself...
    Are you familiar with transmissions?

    Depending on how they are geared, the output spins faster or slower than the input.
    The torque is opposite to that... higher speed = less torque .. even though the engine power is the same.
    Electricity does this too... Higher voltage = less amperage.
    So if you daisy chain a whole bunch of transmissions together, even if they all had a 1:1 gear ration... it would be too hard to actually turn because of friction in all the gears.
    Same thing with looping a generator to motor to the same generator. The resistance in the windings and friction losses make it too hard to allow itself to keep turning... so even if you gave it a flick of your wrist to get going... it would stop almost right away.
     
  11. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    what about using a battery pack between them? the motor will draw from the batteries not the generator.... but the generator will charge the batteries...... what if there was a way to have enough battery power for the motor to charge a second battery pack then switch over and do the same on the other (generator too) (cooling the batteries will be needed) because if the generator only needs to run at 1/2 capacity to charge the batteries under zero load then the motor will be under less load too and will drain the batteries slower.... meaning they will last longer on a single charge.... or even be able to power/charge from the same battery pack

    please stick with me, i might be giving you a headache but im trying to use your knowledge to answer all my theories and questions about the topic :)
     
  12. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    plus this system works

    its the same principle..... Electrical energy in -> kenetic energy out -> Kenetic Energy in-> electrical energy out ->repeat...
     
  13. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    Let's ignore the video. There are lots of videos out there simply to troll people, and some that have some hidden details...

    In order to get 100W of electricity out of the generator, how much energy do you need to put in?
     
  14. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    Here's a tip, more than 100W in mechanical/kinetic energy is required to make 100W of electrical energy. Your loop of Kin -> Elec -> Kin - > Elec -> repeat is broken if each loop results in less than 100% of the energy converted. You need an external source of energy to make up for the loss.
    In cars, this is gasolene.
    In that Youtube video, this is energy from what they call "Ground Zero", but they still state there is external energy being applied.

    I don't mind helping you to learn, but what part of this are you stuck on?
     
  15. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    What is ground zero?
    cheating by using mains to start it up.... even if it runs by itself once the generator has the capacity?
     
  16. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    just a random question thrown in..... would the generator make more power than the motor would use if the motor was powered by the mains?
    idea came from motor stating 30KW generator stating 48KW (60KVA)
    if thatll work, would the motor reduce its power usage if the generator was under less load? (20KW demand from generator instead of 48KW)
     
  17. Gryd3

    Gryd3

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    Jun 25, 2014
    If the motor was plugged into mains, it would draw 30KW, and turn the shaft with less than 30KW of energy (due to losses).
    If you turn the generator with less than 30KW of energy, it will put out even less electricity.

    They key here is that you absolutely NEED to put in more energy than you get out. The energy could be kinetic or electrical, but the fact still remains that all you are doing in converting this energy with less than 100% efficiency.
     
  18. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Chisechi, what you are suggesting WILL NOT WORK. It is pure woo woo.

    If anyone *ever* connects a motor mechanically and electrically to a generator then they are simply wasting power. The loop can do nothing useful (except create heat).
     
  19. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    OK, so you're probably fooled by a car where the alternator is mechanically connected to the engine, and you perceive the alternator to also be electrically connected to it. The thing is the electrical connection is not to the motor, but to the ignition for the motor. The ignition does not power the motor is simply ignites the fuel. Simply powering the ignition will not cause the motor to operate (it requires fuel, *and* to actually be turning in order to operate -- thus the starter motor and the fuel tank)
     
  20. chisechi

    chisechi

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    Nov 4, 2014
    this isnt so correct for diesels.... the very first diesel engines had no ignition or alternator, just a hand crank they would run as long as the engine was turning.... the the parts were mechanically driven (fuel was drawn by vacuum)
    the start up and stop was on a valve linked to the fuel lines.... valve closes, starves engine of fuel, engine dies, turn button, valve opens, crank engine over, engine runs
    diesels only use electrics now for monitoring and control (eco) purposes

    plus; alternators run at 14.7V on a flat battery (12V car battery) whereas a battery charger (UK 230V) will charge at 13.8V from flat.... or 2.5-8V deeply drained

    i car nowadays will use around 110A for start up then 50A while running due to the electronic ecu, pumps, fans, ignition, radio, demist, internal heating, wipers, heated seats, tyre pressure monitors, turbo boost and spool readings, PAS, ABS, exhaust readings, alternator readings, battery readings, headlights, air bags, horn, impact zone sensors...... etc
     
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