Connect with us

New Home Build Help Needed

Discussion in 'Security Alarms' started by Buddy Bob, Feb 8, 2004.

Scroll to continue with content
  1. Buddy Bob

    Buddy Bob Guest

    I'm about to build a new home here in the US, and my builder is going to let
    me run any low voltage wiring I want. I am planning on building a system
    byself. From what I gather, a wired system is the way to go since there
    will be no drywall up.

    I'm planning on doing 4 doors, 3 motion detectors, and illuminated keypads
    upstaris and down. I also would like the option of it paging/calling me
    when it is tripped (not necessary, but nice). I could care less about
    monitoring, as I will have a cop that lives across the street.

    What brands do you recommend?
    I know that the door sensors only require 2 wires... how many do the IR
    units require, is it 3?
    What should I expect to pay for the comlpete setup?
     
  2. Marc

    Marc Guest

    My God! If you deal with someone from this newsgroup you better keep one eye
    open while your sleep at night! this is the worse place to look for info
    for your home security.
    Be very very careful using this group.
    Be sure to closely investigate (primarily if you
    buy online) any of the online alarm seller, especially if they claim a ASA
    certification, a totally false and misleading certification (see that
    later). You wouldn't want to buy from someone whose sideline is
    understanding your alarm system for the purpose of exploiting it later
    byknowing your codes or maintenance access numbers. Be wary of those who do
    not have a brick and mortar store.

    When I was shopping and using this newsgroup some online dealers advertised
    a ASA certification with a picture of a ASA emblem shown on their website.
    It gives a good first impression but when you look into it you find out that
    it was nothing more then some....guy.... creating a website to supposedly
    post complaints, with no entries of complaints or follow-through. It was
    analogous to someone flashing a police badge that turns out to be fake. The
    ASA moniker is a badge without any accreditation and surely this is
    misleading and a scam.

    Some of the free advice you get is not because of someone's unselfish need
    to make the world a better place to live. Most are giving you advice on the
    hope of getting a sale or...."other" information. Listen but don't act on
    the advice until you can confirm or gain some trust in the source by
    researching them.

    Sometimes you can learn a lot about sellers by plugging in email address or
    screenname into a Google search of past news postings. You will be
    surprised, .....no..MAKE THAT SHOCKED....AND I MEAN SHOCKED!!!!..... at what
    you find out about those offering to outfit your alarm. How can our legal
    system let these type of people sell home security!!!!!

    This is a very unregulated online business, and especially risky for
    something as important as YOUR HOME security.

    good luck....and go talk to someone reputible.

    <stolen from Jakes452>
     
  3. Jakes452

    Jakes452 Guest

    My God! If you deal with someone from this newsgroup you better keep one eye
    open while your sleep at night! this is the worse place to look for info
    for your home security. You give info to someone from this group and next
    thing you know you come home and your house is cleaned out ...or
    worse........and inexplicibly, your alarm did not work.
    Be very very careful using this group.
    Be sure to closely investigate (primarily if you
    buy online) any of the online alarm seller, especially if they claim a ASA
    certification, a totally false and misleading certification (see that
    later). You wouldn't want to buy from someone whose sideline is
    understanding your alarm system for the purpose of exploiting it later
    byknowing your codes or maintenance access numbers. Be wary of those who do
    not have a brick and mortar store.

    When I was shopping and using this newsgroup some online dealers advertised
    a ASA certification with a picture of a ASA emblem shown on their website.
    It gives a good first impression but when you look into it you find out that
    it was nothing more then some....guy.... creating a website to supposedly
    post complaints, with no entries of complaints or follow-through. It was
    analogous to someone flashing a police badge that turns out to be fake. The
    ASA moniker is a badge without any accreditation and surely this is
    misleading and a scam.

    Some of the free advice you get is not because of someone's unselfish need
    to make the world a better place to live. Most are giving you advice on the
    hope of getting a sale or...."other" information. Listen but don't act on
    the advice until you can confirm or gain some trust in the source by
    researching them.

    Sometimes you can learn a lot about sellers by plugging in email address or
    screenname into a Google search of past news postings. You will be
    surprised, .....no..MAKE THAT SHOCKED....AND I MEAN SHOCKED!!!!..... at what
    you find out about those offering to outfit your alarm. How can our legal
    system let these type of people sell home security!!!!!

    This is a very unregulated online business, and especially risky for
    something as important as YOUR HOME security.

    good luck....and go talk to someone reputible.
     
  4. Jackcsg

    Jackcsg Guest

    Looks like Jake has a new identity. You should always take advise from
    someone who has failed to be an intelligent consumer. You can learn allot
    from a dummy.

    There are some people here who can help you, some that will mock you, but
    you will be able to (unlike Jake aka Marc) tell the difference and form an
    educated decision.

    Jack
     
  5. Marc

    Marc Guest

    haha i am not jack btw
    i KNEW jakes452 would do it , so i did it for him .. lol maybe i need to get
    out today
     
  6. Buddy Bob

    Buddy Bob Guest

    I have seen that this is your standard reply... thanks for "Using the
    Internet 101".

    Now how about some real answers to my questions, since you are the expert?
     
  7. Marc

    Marc Guest

    Ok ... MOST people use 4 wires for a Motion .. 2 for power, 2 for the loop,
    some have mentioned they use 6 to do some loop back to the panel with
    resistance... as for what system, every installer has their preferance, some
    like DSC, some Ademco, DMP, etc... panels usualy come in 6zones or 8 zones,
    so if you want 4 doors + 3 motions = 7 zones, i would get something like the
    DSC 5010 if your going to go with dsc.

    if your doing this yourself, your complete setup will depend on who/where
    you get your parts from. Keypads are usualy one of the biggest costs. If you
    buy LCD (alpha) keypads, they are usualy around $100 where as LED keypasd
    are about half of that.. i find for DIY a DSC 5010 , a couple of LED 8 zone
    keypads does fine.. as for motions, you have differnt
    brands/prices/technolgoies that run differnt prices..

    email me if you need any help

    -Marc
     
  8. Jackcsg

    Jackcsg Guest

    I would agree. But more physical in nature. Jokes on me.

    Jack
     
  9. Frank Olson

    Frank Olson Guest

    Another graduate of the "RFI Paul" school of monitoring... :))
     
  10. Buddy Bob

    Buddy Bob Guest

    .....lemme guess.... you happen to also sell those services. Sorry that I'm
    not kicking my money into your livelihood. I could care less about my
    house if we're not in it... I know where my priorities are. Where are
    yours? Where I live, all new houses have to have to have fire/smoke/CO
    detectors. All I need it for is to let me know if anyone tries to break in
    while we are home... I'll take care of the rest.

    You're right.. I am ashamed... that I'm even replying to your post.
     
  11. Aegis

    Aegis Guest

    Agreed... Get those wires in while you still can (easily, that is).
    I recommend covering all doors and windows, especially on the bottom floor,
    with contacts. 22 gauge/2 conductor at least, though I never buy less than
    22/4 (spare conductors are a plus).
    Have you thought about a certain brand? Do you want it zoned (ZN1 Front
    Door, ZN2 North Windows, etc) or point-annunciated (PT 11 North Left Window,
    PT 12 North Right Window, etc)?
    Monitoring is your option. What if the cop moves away and the fam is home,
    but you are not? Just things to consider...
    Ademco and DMP
    4 - 2 for power (+ and -) and 2 for the detection loop
    For just the parts or to have them installed too?
     
  12. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    Somehow II have a feeling you'd care big time if someone broke into your
    house when you weren't home
    Yes they make lots of noise don't they? And that's all they'll do
     
  13. RH.Campbell

    RH.Campbell Guest

    Perhaps we should start this thread again, but aim it directly at the
    questions you've asked.

    If you are designing the system yourself, make sure you run the normal
    "telephone" type wire - 4 conductor quad - to each exterior door, and to
    every other place where you wish a detector of any sort..ie outside corner
    mounted motions, glassbreaks facing large windowed areas, one to a siren
    location on the main floor perhaps, plus to ceiling mounted smoke detector
    locations on each floor. Also, run a wire for a second floor keypad in the
    hallway, plus several spare loops to the attic (you'll find you will use
    them over time). Run two quad conductors to each keypad location (many
    systems provide for a zone on the first two keypads in addition to the ones
    on the main board....). And a loop to each basement window if the basement
    is going to be finished on day one...

    Magnetic contacts require a two wire loop and powered devices require two
    loops....ie yellow and green for the contact loop and red and black for 12
    volt power for example is a common colour combination.

    As to alarm panel make, that is a personal choice. In the USA, Napco, Ademco
    and DSC are common makes. In Canada, DSC and Paradox are often used (being
    Canadian brands). Whatever brand you buy, make sure in advance that it is
    "user friendly" and easy to understand. Often it is wise to opt for the
    higher end LCD keypads which can provide more information, and these are
    relatively inexpensive if you are buying it yourself as a DIY'er, as opposed
    to getting it from a professional alarm company where it is often premium
    priced. A lot of the newer panels will call a pager but not a cellphone.
    What you end up paying can vary a lot depending upon where you buy the
    equipment. I can't give you a realistic bottom line here because so much
    depends upon the quality of the components you buy....for example, there are
    cheap motions and there are good ones. Costs can vary widely !

    Do give some serious thought to having it professionally monitored, but
    search around for a company that won't lock you in to a long term contract
    and where there is a reasonable price ($20 or less). Contracts do absolutely
    NOTHING for you as a consumer; they simply guarantee the company a
    guaranteed revenue stream for a future predetermined time. In doing so
    however, they also take away your freedom of choice to shop around if the
    company doesn't provide you good service ! As others have correctly said in
    the thread (albeit somewhat impolitely), a non monitored system is really
    not that useful, and depending upon your neighbours totally is what we here
    in Canada call "penny wise and pound foolish". And assuming because your
    neighbour is a cop will help prevent you from being robbed is simply and
    totally incorrect ! They get robbed just as often as anyone else !

    But of course as a consumer, the choice is totally yours. But most
    important, don't forget the physical security precautions....good locks,
    long steel strikes in the frame, doubling up of the studding on both sides
    of the exterior doors....all easy to do when the house structure is wide
    open. It also might be a good time to relocate the telephone company
    demarcation block inside the garage or basement.

    Get back to us if you have further questions....best of luck !

    R.H.Campbell
    Home Security Metal Products
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    www.homemetal.com
     
  14. RH.Campbell

    RH.Campbell Guest

    I know how you feel Tom ! I often get requests from customers to put in
    half the system forgetting the most important part. But bottom line, it's
    his security and his decision. You and I (and anyone else who has been in
    the professional security business for more than five minutes) knows the
    risk people take by using an alarm system as a simple noisemaker ! But
    everyone puts value on different things in life. I'm sure he honestly
    believes that a simple noisemaker is sufficient. And while you and I know
    that is a mistake, that is HIS mistake to make. We can only give him our
    advice ! Insults do nothing to convince him of the error of his
    conclusions.....

    However, I partly blame our industry for some of that reluctance to have an
    alarm system monitored properly. If we didn't artificially make it so
    expensive and so restrictive for people to buy monitoring, more of these
    skeptics would opt to do things properly. High monitoring prices have
    legitimately come about because of the mass marketing of alarms where a
    dealer MUST get over $30 a month to get a reasonable payback on his
    hardware. This market perception keeps prices high even in instances where
    there is simply no need...ie: customer fully owns system up front, takeovers
    etc.

    But...hey !...what the hell do I know...:(( ...You can lead a horse to water
    but you can't make it drink....

    That's life...

    RHC
     
  15. Buddy Bob

    Buddy Bob Guest

    HAHAHAHAHA... it is soooo easy to push your buttons!!!

    If you really want to protect your family, you would go for tactical
    training like I did.

    Tell me something, what will your local law enforcement do when your alarm
    goes off.... kick in the door and go storming around looking for bad guys?
    Guess again... you could be bleeding to death with your assailant standing
    right next to you. If they see no obvious signs of a break-in and no one
    answers the door, they won't do anything... and they'll even send a bill to
    you for a "false alarm"... hopefully they won't be sending it to a funeral.

    It's a shock that I was right that you're a dealer. You are such a great
    businessman... you must have studied under Dale Carnegie. Repeat after
    me... "I will get Nunya Business with an attitude like this."

    The cop neighbor thing was a joke, as another cop friend of mine was
    standing over my shoulder when I wrote it. He laughed and called me an ass.
    He did get broken into a couple years ago in another neighborhood... funny
    thing was that he was home when it happened, and that was the sorriest piece
    of human waste that night!

    I would like to extend a sincere thanks to all of the people who
    constructively criticized me. The part I didn't consider was fire alerting.
    Sometimes I get caught in the present rather than into the future. My kids
    are at the age where they are never home, but when they get older and can
    stay home alone for an evening, I would rather that 911 would be called for
    a fire... kids can tend to panic in those situations. Since I'm new to
    this, shouldn't there be a way for your system to directly notify 911 that a
    fire alarm has been tripped? I guess it might come down to local
    regulations.
     
  16. Buddy Bob

    Buddy Bob Guest

    You are 100% correct. We got raked for $30 a month for 4 years on an old
    Moose system that came with our previous home. Are there any
    monitoring-only companies that don't have to make up for the cost of their
    systems?
     
  17. RH.Campbell

    RH.Campbell Guest

    Sir, there are numerous companies around that can provide monitoring only,
    or with bundled service and warranty for a bit more, but you WILL have to
    shop around aggressively! I suggest you look within the ranks of the
    smaller dealers, some of whom aren't into the "institutionalized gouging"
    that all the large nationals engage in. If you want to assume the service
    responsibilities for your alarm, there are companies that deal directly with
    the end user for about $9 a month. Our industry unfortunately, has become
    one in which the emphasis on long term monitoring contracts has taken
    precedence over the sale and design of the system itself. While I don't wish
    to tar everyone with that same brush, it IS true enough in the vast majority
    of situations as to make it almost universally so. And the biggest company
    in our business is particularily guilty of this on the residential side of
    their business...

    After about 10 years in the alarm business and 30 years in the security
    business, here is my personal observation of pricing in the market:

    Monitoring is provided to alarm dealers from $3 to $6 monthly, who resell it
    to the end user at whatever markup they deem fair and reasonable to make a
    profit
    Monitoring only directly to the end user with no service and warranty goes
    for about $9 to $11 monthly sometimes with no long term contract. Service is
    subcontracted out but is very expensive....this can make this sketchy
    arrangement a bit of a crap shoot !!
    Monitoring and a measure of service and warranty for from $12 to $20 a
    month, sometimes with no long term commitment but more often with at least a
    year contract
    Monitoring from $20 to $28 monthly, 2 to 5 year contract, but with an
    artificially low price for the installation of the system itself (or not
    !!!) Service and warranty often built in to a large measure ...the domain of
    a lot of dealers and the large nationals
    Monitoring from $28 to $35, "free" upfront system price, 3 to 5 year
    contract......high prices that continue on ad infinitum unless you twist
    their arm afterwards......the domain of the mass marketers and the large
    nationals.

    Bottom line, IMO, you shouldn't be paying more than $20 monthly unless you
    are paying down the equipment costs. If you own your system outright, shop
    below this rate point. And if you can avoid it, DON'T sign a long term
    commitment contract - there's absolutely nothing at all in it for you - you
    lose your leverage against price hikes and service disappointments !!
    However, if you do decide to take on responsibility for your own system, be
    realistic about it. These damn alarm systems can sometimes be pretty tricky
    things although most of the time they will give no problems at all provided
    they are installed correctly and set up properly for pets if applicable.
    However, it really does help to have a dealer at your side unless you are
    skilled in these particular devices...

    But again, as in every other market niche, the choice is totally yours
    choice as the buying consumer.....:))

    R.H.Campbell
    Home Security Metal Products
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    www.homemetal.com
     
  18. Jakes452

    Jakes452 Guest

    My God! If you deal with someone from this newsgroup you better keep one eye
    open while your sleep at night! this is the worse place to look for info
    for your home security. Get "help" from here and next think your house is
    cleaned out and inexplicably your alarm didnt work......or worse.....
    Be very very careful using this group.
    Be sure to closely investigate (primarily if you
    buy online) any of the online alarm seller, especially if they claim a ASA
    certification, a totally false and misleading certification (see that
    later). You wouldn't want to buy from someone whose sideline is
    understanding your alarm system for the purpose of exploiting it later
    byknowing your codes or maintenance access numbers. Be wary of those who do
    not have a brick and mortar store.

    When I was shopping and using this newsgroup some online dealers advertised
    a ASA certification with a picture of a ASA emblem shown on their website.
    It gives a good first impression but when you look into it you find out that
    it was nothing more then some....guy.... creating a website to supposedly
    post complaints, with no entries of complaints or follow-through. It was
    analogous to someone flashing a police badge that turns out to be fake. The
    ASA moniker is a badge without any accreditation and surely this is
    misleading and a scam.

    Some of the free advice you get is not because of someone's unselfish need
    to make the world a better place to live. Most are giving you advice on the
    hope of getting a sale or...."other" information. Listen but don't act on
    the advice until you can confirm or gain some trust in the source by
    researching them.

    Sometimes you can learn a lot about sellers by plugging in email address or
    screenname into a Google search of past news postings. You will be
    surprised, .....no..MAKE THAT SHOCKED....AND I MEAN SHOCKED!!!!..... at what
    you find out about those offering to outfit your alarm. How can our legal
    system let these type of people sell home security!!!!!

    This is a very unregulated online business, and especially risky for
    something as important as YOUR HOME security.

    good luck....and go talk to someone reputible.
     
  19. Aegis

    Aegis Guest

    Some municipalities have direct connections to the 911 dispatch office.
    Getting harder and harder to find though. Still have a few out in the
    boonies here in Texas.

    More than likely, you'll have to be monitored by a central station and
    they'll call the dispatcher when they get the signal. If you are going to
    get fire monitoring, you might as well get burg too. They don't charge per
    zone. Or do they? My god I'll leave the industry if they start!
     
  20. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    That $30 sure won't seem like much if someone robs the place

    How much do you spend on cable TV? Bet you don't think much about the added
    charges for HBO and Showtime, Got cable internet or DSL? Hmmm wonder how
    much that adds...

    But when it comes to something important......naaa $30 is too much
     
Ask a Question
Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?
You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.
Electronics Point Logo
Continue to site
Quote of the day

-