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new dual NPN and PNP transistors

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Ban,

Nice parts indeed. How low is the cost at 1k or higher quantities?

Regards, Joerg
 
B

Ban

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello Ban,

Nice parts indeed. How low is the cost at 1k or higher quantities?
I have only free samples but Arrow lists the BC 547BS for 0.046 each.
This seems too good to be true, together with the current mirrors BCV60/61
they can make nice discrete differential amplifiers.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Ban,
I have only free samples but Arrow lists the BC 547BS for 0.046 each.
That seems to be the normal transistor which you can get under 2 cents.
When I keyed in BCM847 Arrow didn't have it.

Regards, Joerg
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Ban,

That seems to be the normal transistor which you can get under 2 cents.
When I keyed in BCM847 Arrow didn't have it.

Regards, Joerg

Presumably the "M" is for matched. I can't find it listed anywhere- no
links from Philips' site either. 8-(


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ban said:
Win had asked here some time ago about matched duals, these are 10% hFE and
2mV UBE matched and low cost. I use them for a log converter in a VU-meter.

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/datasheets/BCM847BS_1.pdf
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/datasheets/BCM857BS_1.pdf

I know these are new products, but the Philips website (other than the
links you provided) seems to know nothing else about these parts.

Win complained about the BCM846/BCM856 not being available off anybody's
shelf, I'd guess the situation will be worse for these new ones.

Looks like I'll be sticking with CA3046's for a while longer :).

Ban, you wrote about BCV60's a while back too, I couldn't even figure
out who made those, much less sold them!

Tim.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Spehro,
Presumably the "M" is for matched. I can't find it listed anywhere- no
links from Philips' site either. 8-(
There are actually two devices in there, not like in the olden days
where we bought them one matched pair per bag. Pretty nifty but they
have to make it readily available.

The Philips site actually drives me crazy. A classic example of how not
to design a web presence. That goes for a lot of European manufacturers.
Great products but often poor marketing.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Spehro,

There are actually two devices in there, not like in the olden days
where we bought them one matched pair per bag. Pretty nifty but they
have to make it readily available.

The Philips site actually drives me crazy. A classic example of how not
to design a web presence. That goes for a lot of European manufacturers.
Great products but often poor marketing.

Regards, Joerg


The Panasonic site is cool. It often can't do a successful search for
one of their own part numbers.

John
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Spehro,

There are actually two devices in there, not like in the olden days
where we bought them one matched pair per bag. Pretty nifty but they
have to make it readily available.

The Philips site actually drives me crazy. A classic example of how not
to design a web presence. That goes for a lot of European manufacturers.
Great products but often poor marketing.

I had no trouble finding the product page (OK, I admit getting there
through the back door), but no links to purchasable product at any
Philips distributors. They ought to be in the table below the SOT363
graphic, under the "buy online" heading.

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/BCM847BS.html

If the only matching characteristics are |Vbe1-Vbe2| < 2mV and hFE
within 10% then probably most of the jellybean Japanese duals would
pass, I'm guessing.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Panasonic site is cool. It often can't do a successful search for
one of their own part numbers.
John

Getting useful information through most any of the Japanese web sites
is a harrowing experience. It would be interesting to see if
Japanese-speaking engineers have the same problems, or if the problems
are just with Gaijin users.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spehro Pefhany said:
Getting useful information through most any of the Japanese web sites
is a harrowing experience. It would be interesting to see if
Japanese-speaking engineers have the same problems, or if the problems
are just with Gaijin users.

Based on exactly one sample, I'd say they have less luck.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello Ban,

Nice parts indeed.

Er... Why?

So, they are matched devices. So what. The rest of the data sheet shows
average, common or garden specs. For example, ft at 250Mhz is
unimpressive, as is the 10p Cbe equally unimpressive. In addition, no
noise data is shown.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi John,
The Panasonic site is cool. It often can't do a successful search for
one of their own part numbers.
Same with Philips, Infineon etc. I have been unable to find parts that I
personally have designed into products which are still in full
production. So my design-in rate of their products declined rapidly. I
prefer companies who know how marketing to engineers is done and, as an
absolute requirement, list budgetary prices. No budgetary pricing, no
design-in.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Spehro,
I had no trouble finding the product page (OK, I admit getting there
through the back door), ...
Yes, you can get there. But through their home page that is a bear to
do. It even freeze the browser sometimes. When that happens at a client
it is embarrassing. "What did you do to my PC...?".
but no links to purchasable product at any Philips distributors. They ought to be in the table below the SOT363 graphic, under the "buy online" heading.
Plus they ought to list prices. Absolute requirement these days.
If the only matching characteristics are |Vbe1-Vbe2| < 2mV and hFE
within 10% then probably most of the jellybean Japanese duals would
pass, I'm guessing.
Yes, and there also needs to be a 2nd source for parts like this.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Kevin,
Er... Why?

So, they are matched devices. So what. The rest of the data sheet shows
average, common or garden specs. For example, ft at 250Mhz is
unimpressive, as is the 10p Cbe equally unimpressive. In addition, no
noise data is shown.
I guess they are not meant for microwave stuff ;-)

If the price is right, meaning under 10 cents or so, you can do nice
circuits with matched pairs that are in the same package. But you have a
point here. A 10% hfe match is ok but not really something to write home
about.

Regards, Joerg
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim Shoppa wrote...
Ban, you wrote about BCV60's a while back too, I couldn't
even figure out who made those, much less sold them!

BCV61 and BCV62 are npn and pnp mirrors in sot-143 packages,
with 30% current (10mV Vbe) matching. They're made by Philips
and Infineon; Farnell and Newark have them for mere pennies.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hi Kevin,

I guess they are not meant for microwave stuff ;-)

If the price is right,

Ok.


meaning under 10 cents or so, you can do nice
circuits with matched pairs that are in the same package. But you
have a point here. A 10% hfe match is ok but not really something to
write home about.

Yep the classic, LM394 pair, is 50uv matching and 2% hfe match (0.5%
typ), with very low 1/f noise. It costs a bit though.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
..blueyonder.co.uk>) about 'new dual NPN and PNP transistors', on Sun, 3
Oct 2004:
Yep the classic, LM394 pair, is 50uv matching and 2% hfe match (0.5%
typ), with very low 1/f noise. It costs a bit though.

Gigantic Ccb = 10 pF. A sort of silicon dual PX4/2A3. (;-)
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg wrote...
If the price is right, meaning under 10 cents or so, you can do nice
circuits with matched pairs that are in the same package. But you
have a point here. A 10% hfe match is ok but not really something to
write home about.

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/BCM847BS.html
Is this interesting? Most low-cost dual parts these days aren't
monolithic, and have no matching spec at all. Some of the "mirror"
parts have 40% mirror specs, not very good, but better than nothing
(this corresponds to a 10mV Vbe offset for matched transistors, see
AoE fig 2.53). But I'm puzzled by the beta matching offered by some
manufacturers - what's the appeal? If a 10% hfe spec corresponded
to a 10% mirror or offset match, that would be useful, but there's
no indication that there's any correspondence.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
Joerg wrote...

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/BCM847BS.html
Is this interesting? Most low-cost dual parts these days aren't
monolithic, and have no matching spec at all. Some of the "mirror"
parts have 40% mirror specs, not very good, but better than nothing
(this corresponds to a 10mV Vbe offset for matched transistors, see
AoE fig 2.53). But I'm puzzled by the beta matching offered by some
manufacturers - what's the appeal? If a 10% hfe spec corresponded
to a 10% mirror or offset match, that would be useful, but there's
no indication that there's any correspondence.

I thought so, too. we are always warned not to accept designs that
depend on even a 2: 1 beta range.

My guess is that if your device has a 10% beta match, flaunt it, even
though it's irrelevant. Next week, dual devices in which the package is
****exactly the same colour for both devices****!!!!.
 
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