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Negative ion generators

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Technician, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Technician

    Technician Guest

    Hi all,
    I hope you can assist me with some questions about negative ion
    generators and ozone production.

    Firstly, I've been searching for some schematics (with no luck,I can
    only find flyback transformer ccts and cockroft walton types of ccts)
    for those commercial negative ion generators (not ozone generators) you
    often see at the source or on ebay that utilize a metal plate to collect
    dirt and pollutants (without any luck) while the business end of things
    supposedly generates "ion wind" into the local air to give you that warm
    fuzzy feeling. (It's obvious a negative ion generator's mood lifting
    effects aren't that tremendous otherwise it would spell the answer to
    todays world peace issues...lol) How are these "plates" connected to
    collect stuff from the air?

    Secondly is my confusion about ozone production, and the safety of ozone
    in our living quarters in the first place. There is so much conflicting
    information about ozone exposure, and if it's good or bad, and at what
    levels are safe and beneficial or hazardous it's not funny.

    Even more confusing is reading one vendor's claims that no ozone is
    produced by their units so they are safer, while another vendor of the
    exact same Chinese made generic device preaches how good it's tiny
    amount of ozone production is good for you!

    Is there a calculation when designing a crockcroft walton generator for
    example which can tell you how much ozone is being produced along with
    the negative ions?
    Additionally, is nitric acid also not produced by these high voltage
    units, or is an arc necessary to produce nitric acid?

    Are there differences in the negative ions properties depending on
    factors such as different types of HV circuits that generate them (neon
    sign transformer,photocopier HV supply,laser supply or a voltage
    multiplier cct), the type of needle (copper, steel, aluminum)that
    delivers the ions to the air, or is a negative ion a negative ion
    depending solely on the proportions of voltage and current?
    I only ever read about the count of negative ions, but not about their
    intensity or amplitude, are some ions more "charged" than others?

    Sorry for so many questions, I'm only posting here to clarify the
    confusion caused by so much literature on the net, and the lack of
    schematics. I thought I actually knew something about the subject until
    read so much!

    Thanks!
     
  2. Guest

    hello, I was in the same boat as you last year while searching for mood
    lifting etc.
    I also stumbled upon the ''pikashoes''
    http://www.afrotechmods.com/cheap/negativeiongenerator/pikashoe7.htm
    that utilise negative ion generator, it is quite amusing..

    I'm sorry that i can't help you with your Qs. the reason being after
    last year, I've learned that at least one half of the sources for info
    on Neg ions are lying.
    it's misinformation after misinformation.
    good luck though.
     
  3. dlzc

    dlzc Guest

    Dear Technician:
    Like a battery. You "spray" electron into the air (corona, like a
    laser printer does), they find a home on stuff in the air... the bigger
    the easier to attach to, then attract the electrons some distance away
    with the positive pole.
    It isn't toxic. What doesn't do damage right away, doesn't hang around
    to poison you long-term. Ozone is produced *very selectively* in your
    body by white blood cells. The result of excess ozone exposure could
    be hardening of the arteries (plaque formation). Beyond frying the
    delicate membranes in your lungs, of course.

    I breathed 12 wt% ozone on a couple of occasions. Massive headache,
    and felt really wierd for a while. But I didn't lose any additional
    hair, and I did not develop asthma. Of course, I didn't feel "giddy
    like a schoolgirl" either.
    You can add a small amount of catalyst (carulite 200), and achieve a
    net reduction in ambient ozone. That (or something similar) is what
    "Ionic Breeze" folks did.
    You will always make some ozone. Percentages, I am not sure.
    If you have humidity, oxygen and nitrogen, you will make oxides of
    nitrogen N2O, NO2, and N2O5.
    I believe you are dead on. The electron that forms the charged species
    has no idea how it was launched, nor does the "assembly" know once it
    lands.
    Unlikely that once something is charged it can hang around long enough
    to accept another electron.
    You can reduced charged species formation if you get the electron
    removed right away, both surfaces are *very* clean, and the air is very
    dry. Other than that...

    If in doubt, don't.

    David A. Smith
     
  4. Technician

    Technician Guest

    Thanks David,
    Your information is very helpful.
    What about the hookup? Where does the "collection plate" actually hook
    up to? I am awaiting delivery of a bunch of negative ion "modules",
    120vac in and one wire out -7.5kV. There is no positive output or ground
    wires, just black in, white in, and red out.

    Where would one hook up a collection plate to this device?

    Also, is there actually a way to control the amount of negative ions
    produced as opposed to the amount of ozone produced by a device?

    For example, if your familiar with the PAPIMI therapeutic devices, they
    put out 50kV @ 1mhZ (not sure of the current I'm sure it's in the order
    of mA's) and have no ozone production to speak of (that one can sense
    anyhow). I've seen the sparks that come off of those things, they have
    some crazy pulsed complex waveform duty cycle. I never smelled ozone
    during it's operation.
    Is the production of ozone in HV generators relative to the equation:

    Di
     
  5. You don't, unless you are building a dust collector which is quite
    different.
     
  6. dlzc

    dlzc Guest

    Dear Technician:
    Well, there are two choices:
    1) the chassis, or
    2) (God help you) the neutral of the 120vac (the white wire).
    Not with the device, only with the feed gas (and of course keeping the
    surfaces clean and *dark*). Visible light in concert with NOx and
    hydrocarbons (which could include "dust") can make ozone.
    Proabably microamps.
    Not to the best of my knowledge. But then I always wanted to maximize
    ozone production.
    http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf
    .... the cell in there was at one time my design. Don't know what it is
    now.

    I know of ozone production cells that run close to megahertz...

    Good luck.

    David A. Smith
     
  7. Sambo

    Sambo Guest

    Who needs ozone, this subject alone is enough to get a headache.

    I was going to say Ground it, but have seen warnings like that
    before but never did understood why, but where else you ground
    something in an apartment. So I stuck to battery powered flyback
    generator and the TV I found it in even had a tripler brick.

    As to the amount of ozone, it is proportional the the voltage and
    therefore it's starting velocity as it leaves the emitter.
    Hmmm perhaps that is one of the static electricity properties,
    the electron doesn't travel trough a conductor and it's speed is
    not constant.
    While it's speed is high enough to produces ozone, one electron
    can produce more molecules along it's 'bumper ball' path.
    With low enough voltage the ozone creation is in the immediate
    vicinity of the emitter and farther it travels away the more
    likely it is it will disassociate, also there is probably greater
    abundance of conditions that allow it to revert back to O2 with
    smaller amount of O3 generated.

    At least that's the way I explain it.

    Cheers.
     
  8. Technician

    Technician Guest

    Ok then, how do build a dust collector?
    So far I'm no further ahead, I'll be more direct, can anyone supply me
    the schematic for this unit?? (Including how they connect the collection
    plates!!)
    I just want to build a device that will remove all the cooties from the
    air and fill it with happy joy joy little friendly ions.


    ;)

    See below URL:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-IONIC...2QQihZ005QQcategoryZ14949QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
     
  9. Look for a library big enough to have back copies of Radio Electronics (US)
    and search them. IIRC they've done both projects in the past.


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  10. dlzc

    dlzc Guest

    Dear Sambo:
    It is excellent as a chemical additive to water treatment. It is
    really effective as a chemical treatment to remediate smoke and mold.
    It is otherwise a legally controlled / proscribed pollutant, and any
    medical discussions can run afoul of the law.
    You run the risk of tripping GFIs, and you turn your house into a radio
    transmitter... wiping out nearby communications across a wide band of
    frequencies.
    As good as any. In air, corona forms at around 1000 volts (some of
    which you can get from the shape of the electrode). It only takes ~2
    volts to ionize oxygen, some of which will land on O2, some of which
    will land on N2, and some of which will collapse back on its partner
    after the electron leaves.

    It is all black magic.

    David A. Smith
     
  11. Grostle News

    Grostle News Guest

    Hi, Technician

    I purchased a surplus electronics 7.5kv device for neg ion generation
    (uses 120v wall power). Here is some hook-up info that I found, but
    can't say if it works, I never tried it:

    http://www.swansontec.com/sionizer.htm

    btw- I like the smell of ozone. And for some strange reason positive
    ions, (and not negative ions) lift my mood.

    saxum g.n.
     
  12. Grostle News

    Grostle News Guest

    When researching Internet about ozone generators I was surprised to
    discover that clandestine growers of marijuana (indoors, under
    artificial light) use ozone generation to eliminate the tell-tale odors
    of their illicit activities.

    saxum g.n.
     
  13. dlzc

    dlzc Guest

    This unit either uses the mounting hardware as the positive reference,
    or where he says "properly wired home" the neutral wire. Notice that
    it is DC output, and no sort of AC.

    David A. Smith
     
  14. Technician

    Technician Guest

    thanks!!!
     
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