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Need schematics for 120Vdc supply

J

Jacques St-Pierre

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello,



I need to find a simple, back to the basic, switching supply design to
achieve these specifications, using off the shelve parts:



Input: 13.8Vdc

Output: 120Vdc

Power: 120watts (maximum)

Output short protected.

No need for In/Out isolation (common ground path)



As you may figure out, it will be use to power an injector drive circuit for
a diesel motor. These injectors are very low resistance coils; switch ON for
a few of milliseconds in sink with the motor cylinders action. So I need a
supply that can deliver high power surge while not exploding when a driver
transistor turn short.



Any suggestions will be welcome.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello,



I need to find a simple, back to the basic, switching supply design to
achieve these specifications, using off the shelve parts:



Input: 13.8Vdc

Output: 120Vdc

Power: 120watts (maximum)

Output short protected.

No need for In/Out isolation (common ground path)



As you may figure out, it will be use to power an injector drive circuit for
a diesel motor. These injectors are very low resistance coils; switch ON for
a few of milliseconds in sink with the motor cylinders action. So I need a
supply that can deliver high power surge while not exploding when a driver
transistor turn short.



Any suggestions will be welcome.

Sounds like the hard way ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jacques St-Pierre said:
Hello,



I need to find a simple, back to the basic, switching supply design to
achieve these specifications, using off the shelve parts:



Input: 13.8Vdc

Output: 120Vdc

Power: 120watts (maximum)

Output short protected.

No need for In/Out isolation (common ground path)



As you may figure out, it will be use to power an injector drive circuit
for a diesel motor. These injectors are very low resistance coils; switch
ON for a few of milliseconds in sink with the motor cylinders action. So
I need a supply that can deliver high power surge while not exploding
when a driver transistor turn short.



Any suggestions will be welcome.

An automotive 120 VAC inverter, a bridge rectifier, a capacitor, and a
fuse.

Paul
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Paul E. Schonk"
"Jacques St-Pierre Le Frog "

An automotive 120 VAC inverter, a bridge rectifier, a capacitor, and a
fuse.


** Gives about 170 volts DC and is not short circuit proof.



...... Phil
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jacques St-Pierre said:
Input: 13.8Vdc

Output: 120Vdc

Power: 120watts (maximum)

Output short protected.

No need for In/Out isolation (common ground path)

Ok, easy.
As you may figure out, it will be use to power an injector drive circuit
for > a diesel motor. These injectors are very low resistance coils;
switch ON for > a few of milliseconds in sink with the motor cylinders
action. So I need a supply that can deliver high power surge while not
exploding when a driver transistor turn short.

Yea... you forgot to mention what resistance. And inductance too. Any
peculiar turn-on-surge current? Exactly how long are they on for?

Tim
 
J

Jacques St-Pierre

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,



I not sure all the project parameters are pertinent to the supply design,
but here what I can give you:



Injector Coil DC Resistance: around 1 ohm

Injector Coil Inductance: Unknown

Injector Coil Pulse width: Variable between 50 microseconds and 5
milliseconds

Injector Coil Pulse frequency: Variable between 0 to 60 Hz

The motor use 6 injectors. They are pulsed in sequence, one by one.



The 6 injectors have a common path to the +120Vdc supply. They are return to
ground using a power mosfet drive by a computer. (This is very similar to
industrial unit).



Our prototype used a very typical 120Vac input power supply, using a simple
transformer/bridge/capacitor design powered from the outlet. We add a 10
ohms power resistor in series with the +120Vdc to prevent the bridge from
exploding in case of short, but this limit the current and heat up a lot.



We tried to use a commercial power inverter (400watts 13.8Vdc to 120Vac) to
drive the 120Vac transformer to run the device from the 13.8Vdc power
source. This is not working very well; the inverter is not powerful enough.
We did not try with larger inverter. In any case, this concept is far than
be efficient, and end up to being too voluminous to be used later.



I did try to use the power inverter as supply, but as mention we end up with
170Vdc. I modified the unit removing the DC to AC section and use only the
13.8Vdc to 170Vdc section. I also modified the loop back to lower the output
at 120Vdc, but this is too limit for the unit transformer, it end up
unstable and I still have no current limit protection. The prototype
explodes a couple of time during test. The transformer should be modified,
removing a few secondary turns, but it's impossible to rewire it without
destroying it.



Looking at industrial units, I know they use something similar to a boost
regulator. They use a PWM chip (unmark), a coil and a 220uf 160Vdc
capacitor. The circuit is a bit complex, build on a multilayer PCB and
difficult to reverse engineer. In any way, I do not wish to copy any
proprietary design.



I need the short protection, in case one of the mosfet short, this can
append. Also the end users are not very prudent to protect the circuit. They
often short the coils or let wires touch the frame and so on. So it must be
build to endure rough treatment.



Bye
Jacques
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,



I not sure all the project parameters are pertinent to the supply design,
but here what I can give you:



Injector Coil DC Resistance: around 1 ohm

Injector Coil Inductance: Unknown

Injector Coil Pulse width: Variable between 50 microseconds and 5
milliseconds

Injector Coil Pulse frequency: Variable between 0 to 60 Hz

The motor use 6 injectors. They are pulsed in sequence, one by one.



The 6 injectors have a common path to the +120Vdc supply. They are return to
ground using a power mosfet drive by a computer. (This is very similar to
industrial unit).



Our prototype used a very typical 120Vac input power supply, using a simple
transformer/bridge/capacitor design powered from the outlet. We add a 10
ohms power resistor in series with the +120Vdc to prevent the bridge from
exploding in case of short, but this limit the current and heat up a lot.



We tried to use a commercial power inverter (400watts 13.8Vdc to 120Vac) to
drive the 120Vac transformer to run the device from the 13.8Vdc power
source. This is not working very well; the inverter is not powerful enough.
We did not try with larger inverter. In any case, this concept is far than
be efficient, and end up to being too voluminous to be used later.



I did try to use the power inverter as supply, but as mention we end up with
170Vdc. I modified the unit removing the DC to AC section and use only the
13.8Vdc to 170Vdc section. I also modified the loop back to lower the output
at 120Vdc, but this is too limit for the unit transformer, it end up
unstable and I still have no current limit protection. The prototype
explodes a couple of time during test. The transformer should be modified,
removing a few secondary turns, but it's impossible to rewire it without
destroying it.



Looking at industrial units, I know they use something similar to a boost
regulator. They use a PWM chip (unmark), a coil and a 220uf 160Vdc
capacitor. The circuit is a bit complex, build on a multilayer PCB and
difficult to reverse engineer. In any way, I do not wish to copy any
proprietary design.



I need the short protection, in case one of the mosfet short, this can
append. Also the end users are not very prudent to protect the circuit. They
often short the coils or let wires touch the frame and so on. So it must be
build to endure rough treatment.



Bye
Jacques

Yea... you forgot to mention what resistance. And inductance too. Any
peculiar turn-on-surge current? Exactly how long are they on for?

Tim

You might be able to adapt a scheme such as shown in...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HammerDriver_RevD.pdf

You need to measure the inductance of your injectors, then I could run
the numbers.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
 
J

Jamie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jacques said:
Hello,



I need to find a simple, back to the basic, switching supply design to
achieve these specifications, using off the shelve parts:



Input: 13.8Vdc

Output: 120Vdc

Power: 120watts (maximum)

Output short protected.

No need for In/Out isolation (common ground path)



As you may figure out, it will be use to power an injector drive circuit for
a diesel motor. These injectors are very low resistance coils; switch ON for
a few of milliseconds in sink with the motor cylinders action. So I need a
supply that can deliver high power surge while not exploding when a driver
transistor turn short.



Any suggestions will be welcome.
It would be easier to get an inverter already made, with bridge
rectifier on the output. 120 watts is a very small one.
It would cost you lest in money and time.
Or, you can try to build a simple thing like this and put a bridge
rectifier on the output, along with some filter caps.

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/inverter.asp
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Paul E. Schonk"



** Gives about 170 volts DC and is not short circuit proof.

I'm not sure that the open circuit voltage is all that critical. It could
be made relatively short-circuit proof by charging the capacitor through a
relatively large resistor (150 ohms 100 watts) and then choosing a resistor
for discharging into the injectors that will give the peak current required
for a few mSec. I found the following injector driver kit:
http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/home_n.asp?dir=detail&id=3212

It drives the injectors with a 4.1A pulse for up to 5 mSec and then drops
the current to 1 amp. It does not specify the load resistance and
inductance, or what the rise time of the pulse must be, but I doubt that
120 VDC is really necessary. The module described above is $333 and drives
up to 10 injectors. I also found:
http://www.drivven.com/DieselInjectorDriverModuleKit.htm

But this is only 3 channels and costs $2000! It does have an internal boost
supply of 150 VDC and is capable of 30A peak and 15A hold, but that is
probably for huge industrial engines, although I don't know what the OP
really needs.

Here is an article about a new piezo injector that can operate on 12 VDC
directly:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/09/delphi-launches.html

Information on patents by Delphi and others:
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090133671
http://www.patents.com/Circuit-controlling-indicating-fuel-injector-operation/US4612597/en-US/

Here are some waveforms for driving fuel injectors:
http://www.mcm1.com/pdf/MCM_PFIM.pdf
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109873/article.html

Here are some detailed specs for an injector, showing resistance,
inductance, and current:
http://www.jasperengines.com/injector-injectorrail.php

Probably too much information, but I may have learned something...

Paul
 
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