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need pointers for warehouse/office security system

Discussion in 'Security Alarms' started by Bob, Sep 7, 2003.

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  1. Bob

    Bob Guest

    I would appreciate any pointers I can get for setting
    up security, fire alarms, etc. in my warehouse/office.

    I am trying to protect two buildings separated by an alley
    (probably I need a wireless link between the buildings).
    I live on the second floor of one of them. There are 9 garage
    doors (2 automatic), 1 walkthrough door, and a dozen windows.
    I also plan to have some inside doors to restrict access within
    the building.

    I want to buy some sort of do-it-yourself kits with these features:
    - proximity card keys (restricted to business hours normally
    but able to be modified when an employee needs after-hours access)
    - garage door openers with the same features as the card keys
    - burglar alarms and fire alarms that will also send a page
    - surveillance cameras with a digital recorder/multiplexer

    I would really appreciate pointers to websites where these types
    of items are sold, etc. I don't understand the lingo enough yet
    to filter out all the cheapo homeowner products.
     
  2. Frank Olson

    Frank Olson Guest

    It would be nice to know where you're posting from? What State/Province?
    The best thing to do is to contact your local AHJ and check to see where
    your warehouse "fits in" for fire alarms. I don't know what you're storing
    or doing on your premises and that has a *lot* to do with what's required in
    the way of a system.

    It would seem to me that what you're looking for matches the criteria for
    either a Vista 250 with an access control component or a DSC MaxSys. You
    can view the Vista 250 info here:

    http://www.ademco.com/ademco/products/controls/VISTA250FBP.htm

    The DSC Maxsys system is located here:

    http://www.dscsec.com/Maxsys33/maxsys33spec.htm

    If you need information regarding the purchase of the product and some help
    with lay-out and design make sure you advise the online merchant you're
    planning to use what your AHJ has specified. You can contact any of the
    following alarm dealers:

    http://www.youralarmstore.com
    http://www.alarmsystemstore.com
    http://www.alarmsuperstore.com
    http://www.diycomponents.com
    http://www.alarmcontacts.com

    I mention the above (there are lots more to choose from) because these guys
    are regular participants in this forum. They also run alarm companies in
    conjunction with their online dealerships.

    I'd also suggest contacting a couple of local firms to find out what they
    recommend for your premise. Once you get an equipment list and price post
    it here and I'm sure you'll get some good feedback.

    Good Luck!!
     
  3. J. Sloud

    J. Sloud Guest

    On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:21:15 -0400, "Robert L. Bass"

    Sometimes, your comments are a little off base...
    While it's true that laws vary from state to state, they also vary in
    each individual jurisdiction. However, there are far more occupancy
    classifications than just a "place of assembly" that require a fire
    alarm system be installed. Most jurisdictions require that if a
    system is installed, it be installed per building codes by someone
    licensed to do the work.

    I said UL Listed, FM APPROVED.

    Read the first Section of NFPA 72. Any commercial fire alarm device
    must be Listed for use in a commercial fire alarm.
    Yes, the AHJ has the final say. However, they normally enforce the
    code as written. Doing less makes them liable. Many jursidictions
    require a plan submittal and approval before procedding with a fire
    alarm system.
    Only if they are listed for such use.
    It depends on the application. While it's true that each type of
    detector is best suited to a unique envirornment, a blanket statement
    that pe type smokes not be used in commercial applications is
    irresponsible.
    Again, both should be Listed for their intended purpose.
    The dual line DACT you mentioned is one way to meet the requirement of
    commercial fire alarm communication. Residential panels do not have
    this capability, and therefore, won't meet NFPA-72 code.
    Depending on you skill, installing a dozen maglocks or stikes may be
    akin to rebuilding the motor of a Ferrari racecar. Given the proper
    tools and knowledge, its a piece of cake. Screw something up, and it
    could be expensive to fix.
    Yes, sold to dealers, not the end use. Manufacturers limit what's
    availble to distributors. Northern, whom you seem to like, will not
    sell their ESG line through distributors. This limits unqualified
    dealers and online resellers to the lower end products.
    For residential and simple small business systems, the concept is
    probably okay. Complex commercial applications are probably best left
    to a intregrator. The original post falls somewhere in between.
    I will.
    I just checked a few of your prices online. I randomly clicked on a
    few items that you carry, and on each one your price was higher. Of
    course, you have access to a lot of items that I won't sell, i.e. the
    whole ADI catalog. However, for the stuff that I do have available,
    you may be suprised at what economies of scale do for my pricing..
    Given as an example. The above mentioned panel meets NFPA
    requirements, and should past muster with most AHJ's. You're right,
    however. Some may require a separate FA panel.
    Access systems are specifically affected by NFPA 101. Free egress
    through fire doors is the primary concern.
    Access control integrated into a IDS control panel id another option.
    However, it isn't as flexible and isn't as easy to use as a PC based
    system.
    With 220 offices in North America, I can also do that. I just need to
    know who to call.

    J.
     
  4. Frank Olson

    Frank Olson Guest

    Nahh.... He doesn't read well...

    Generous, isn't he??

    Correct... In commercial fire alarm applications in Vancouver (at least)
    you can't DIY... Any installation/addition also has to be Verified by an
    approved agency...

    Like I said... he doesn't read very well...

    Most AHJ's also recognize the panel labelling. If it's a listed commercial
    fire alarm device they will accept it.

    Ionization type smoke detectors are commonly used in commercial applications
    because they're *cheaper*. The bid process always goes with the cheapest
    price (unfortunately)... If the system is *designed*, stamped and approved
    by an electrical engineer you *may* wind up with photo-electrics being
    spec'd on the job though...
    DSC sells an add on module called the PC5700 that provides the second
    supervised telephone line... They call it the "Fire Module". <<<quote: A
    zone expansion module with four general purpose zone inputs, two Class A
    supervisory waterflow zone inputs, ground fault detection and
    dual-supervised telephone line inputs. unquote>>> Robert knows nothing
    about DSC though (which he's proven over and over again)... I'm also
    certain other panel manufacturers have a similar UL or ULC listed device
    available.

    Ain't that the truth...

    Shhh!... Robert doesn't know this...

    From the OP's requirements, I'd suggest that this is way beyond a DIY job
    anyway... IMOH...

    Shhh.... Robert's gearing up to go on one of his "rants" again...

    Make sure you post the parts list and prices so he can "adjust" them
    appropriately... :)

    In Vancouver, the Ademco line is not frequently quoted on fire alarm jobs.
    Companies like Edwards, Simplex/Grinnel, Notifier all quote to the trade
    directly usually through electrical distributors. An electrical contractor
    will buy all the parts necessary that's considered within his "scope of
    work". That includes lighting, HVAC, fire alarm... On some jobs the burg
    company has to quote to the electrical contractor as well, but that's rare.
     
  5. J. Sloud

    J. Sloud Guest

    I usually don't compete with small dealers in my position. However
    like any company, ADT bid prices vary depending on the job. I've seen
    them be lowest, the highest, and somewhere in between many, many
    times. If I apply a reasonable margin to my cost on any "ADT
    approved" product, it will be a whole lot lower than the prices you
    list on your site. Of course, we don't generally do business this
    way, and residential/ small business programs pretty much forbid it.
    However, we recently provided about $50K worth of equipment to a
    "DIY". Of course, this "DIY" was a group of electronic techs at a
    military base and not some guy off the street with a screwdriver and a
    dream.
    I assume you're talking about the panel labeled as "Quickstart?" I
    know that the local office has installed a few of these. I'll ask the
    lead installer if the help program is worth a damn. If not, I'll give
    him your number. The only EST panels I've quoted are EST 2 and 3's
    (ADT 2000 and 3000). I don't do a whole lot of fire alarm business,
    especially since the Simplex buy, but I've use ADT's Unimode line
    (Notifier/ Fire-Lite OEM) more than EST .

    J.
     
  6. Bob

    Bob Guest

    thanks, all. These are helpful pointers. Even if I hire
    a professional, I need to educate myself first.

    BTW I'm not planning to do-it-myself because I'm stingy.
    It's cheaper and easier to hire a professional, but the
    people I've talked to in this area (Galveston/Houston, TX)
    seem to be only interested in signing me up for some standard
    package they are pushing at the moment (no money down and
    X dollar per month). The only way to get the solution I
    want is to do it myself.

    This is going to be a long project that will involve
    building walls and doors in the warehouse, intalling A/C,
    and changing our way of doing business to control employee theft.
    Reading the instruction manuals on these gizmos is a small
    part of the job. Also I used to be a software engineer, so
    I'm used to reading abstruse manuals.

    I'll check into the fire regulations. That's something I
    didn't consider.
     
  7. If you want some professional help on your warehouse project, give me a
    call. I am fully licensed fire and burglary. I am here in Houston and have
    done projects like youdescribe. If you want to save some money and do the
    physical work yourself, I will work with you. I will also buy he
    professional grade equipment you need for you (at a modest markup). 600
    Plus satisfied customers and reference provided to all of them.

    Regards,
    Allan Waghalter
    Security Sure Alarm Company
    713-771-8887
     
  8. Frank Olson

    Frank Olson Guest

    Have you seen him install? Do you know he's licensed, bonded and insured??
    Have you seen his work??

    You asked me the same questions about Jim Rojas, Robert... It's your
    turn...
     
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