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Woo-Woo Need help with running car on water electronic bored?????

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HydroConversions

May 19, 2011
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ok so iv started this project of building a hydrogen generator and i need somekind of control bored the 12v from the car battery needs to be 62VDC and 10-17amps but the main thing is i need someway of making the hertz 20KHz-150KHz. Does anyone know how i can do this?? You help or any help at all is much appreciated!! my name is Leo btw
 

(*steve*)

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And why do you want to generate hydrogen?

You do realise that the amount of power you get from the combustion of the hydrogen will be less than the power required to extract it?

Generating high power at that frequency is likely to involve significant losses too, and they are not going to help.

I suspect you may not appreciate this sort of help :(
 

HydroConversions

May 19, 2011
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not true it depends on how much hydrogen is produced and you DO NOT need alot of current its just the Htz so do you know how i can get that many hurts?
 

(*steve*)

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Just because you don't understand the laws of thermodynamics, there is no reason for you to think they don't apply.

And perhaps you should google Heinrich Hertz.
 

HydroConversions

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You clearly don't know what your talking about your talking about thermodynamics is irrelevant to producing hydrogen the way i am. When producing hydrogen you can not get over 1.24VDC and 10-20 amps or the water will boil
 

duke37

Jan 9, 2011
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It is entropy man!
But seriously, many 12V inverter circiuts can be found on the net.
Electrolysis using AC will not produce hydrogen, it will produce a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in an ideal ratio (H2O) to react back to water. Could blow your head off!
 

(*steve*)

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This is the chemical equation:

2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O

This reaction is exothermic (i.e. releases energy), but also requires a certain initial amount of energy to start (just mixing the gasses will not work)

So you provide a small amount of energy (enough to start a small reaction) and the energy released by this is enough to get the rest of the reagents to react together. In a typical internal combustion engine, this is the work of the spark.

The resulting gas has a higher temperature and pressure. The role of the internal combustion engine is to convert this pressure to rotational energy. This results in a reduction of both pressure and temperature. However much of energy released is wasted due to many inefficiencies. The need for cooling of an internal combustion engine points to the fact that losses are occurring. The fact that the exhaust gasses are hotter than the fuel is also an indication of loss of energy. We also know that there are frictional losses in the engine. All this results in an efficiency of around 15% to 20%

This 15% to 20% drives the wheels (and there are more losses getting there, but let's not worry about them) and also things like the alternator. The alternator is not 100% efficient either, but lets assume it is.

So from the 15% to 20% of the energy remaining from the combustion we now extract some energy to reverse the reaction given above. The reverse reaction is strongly exothermic (i.e. you have to supply energy to do it) and the amount of energy required is the same as that released when it goes forward. And there will be losses -- as there are in extracting energy from the forward reaction -- in heating effects, other unwanted reactions, etc).

So let's assume we have 100 units of water to begin with. let's assume it releases 100 units of energy when burnt.

The engine is only 20% efficient, so we get 20 units of usable energy. Ignoring losses, and ignoring the fact that we want to drive the wheels, that allows us to split 20 units of water.

This allows us to get 5 units of usable energy, allowing us to split just over 1 unit of water.

You can easily see that the energy available from the combustion of Hydrogen and Oxygen are insufficient to split the same amount of water and have excess energy available to do useful work.

So where does the extra energy come from? It comes from the other fuel your car uses. You simply use more fuel to keep this process going.

But you might be thinking, "what about catalysts, don't they make the reaction proceed with less energy?"

The answer is yes, and no. As you recall, Hydrogen and oxygen do not react at room temperature and pressure. Some energy is required to push them over the hump and start a self-sustaining reaction. A catalyst reduces the size of this hump. This reduces the temperature and pressure required to start the reaction.

Similarly, in the reverse direction, the reaction has to be pushed over the hump, requiring more energy than is released. A catalyst can reduce the size of this hump, thus bringing the amount of energy required closer to that which is released.

However, note that I did not take these losses into account in my example above (which would have made things even worse). I assumed the perfect catalyst.

This is a perfect example of a perpetual motion machine. It cannot work unless you can achieve the (unachievable) 100% efficiency in all steps. And even if you do, you can't get any energy out unless you manage to average over 100% efficiency. Most people realise that this can't be achieved.

In short, the amount of energy to put into a system will always be more than the amount you can get out of it. If you put zero energy in, then you can never get anything out. If you start a system with an initial investment of energy, then the system will wind down by itself or as you remove energy (or a combination of both)
 

poor mystic

Apr 8, 2011
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Hi there Hydroconversions (smile)
I really disagree with the idea that Steve doesn't know what he's talking about. Can you accept that this is what I believe - Steve has a really good idea of what makes things tick.
I also think that when you ask someone for help and they respond to the best of their ability they deserve thanks.

How to make "Hertz".

Electric power can come in 2 forms - DC and AC.

DC is the kind of electricity that comes from a car battery.

As for AC, imagine you had a light bulb connected to a battery through some switches. You could set things up so that first the light bulb was connected one way round, then the other way round, so fast you wouldn't notice any breaks in the light. So first the electricity would flow in one direction, then in the other. Electricity going backwards and forwards like that is called "Alternating Current" or AC. Of course real AC is never made that way and changes direction smoothly, but the switches explain it a little.

Hertz means number of backwards-and-forwards cycles the electricity goes through every second.

You want to make AC at anywhere between 20,000 and 150,000 cycles per second. This is easy. You could use a 555 integrated circuit (see https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/555_timer_IC) to do that. Less than $5.
You need to spend a bit on the power section in order to handle the large currents at low voltages I see you want.

BTW I've met a few people over the years who very seriously believe in the kind of technology you're talking about. None of them has ever shown me anything that wasn't scrawled on the back of an envelope, and none of them has ever had any grasp of physics, and they have all told me that people who study physics don't know what they're talking about - not one of them had an ounce of humility.

If they studied their Joe cells properly would they eventually become physicists and thus disqualified from taking themselves seriously?

What would happen if you personally took up a study of physics? Would you gain a knowledge of electricity and chemistry to aid you in your quest for understanding? The alternative I have sometimes heard is that you would lose some kind of ability to think in a brand-new way, albeit a way of thinking which doesn't seem to me to work.

I started out with the same kinds of questions you need answered a long time ago. I too had impossible dreams, and I set to work to try and find out what is real so I could make my little contribution, because things that aren't real don't work.
 
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Windadct

May 25, 2011
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2- to 150khz

Hello All I am new here but work in power electronics - I believe the 20-150kHz HC is referring to is the Switching Frequency of a MOSFET DC-DC converter.

The electrolysis is best with DC - or else you will get both H and O in a very volatile mix.

If it was possible to get the Hydrogen out of water - using less energy than it "gives back" during combustion ( or in a fuel cell) all of our problems would be solved.

Cheers

Paul
 

HydroConversions

May 19, 2011
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let me explain i need 12VDC at 10amp and its going to be a square pulse at 20,000-150,000 htz (DC) you don't need a lot of current to produce a lot of gas you just need htz
 

(*steve*)

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Make a 555 oscillator and use it to drive the gate of a beefy MOSFET via a 50 ohm resistor.
 

poor mystic

Apr 8, 2011
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Hi HydroConversions
did you check out the Wikipedia link I posted? If you're happy with that we could discuss how to get the 555 to modulate a high-power device such as a MOSFET.
... an astable multivibrator using SCR's or Triacs might be useful in meeting your requirements. I'll see if I can dredge something up - it's been 25 years since someone mentioned that idea...
 

duke37

Jan 9, 2011
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Hi,
In your first post you stated you wanted 62V at 10 to 17A, This is a very high power for a battery to provide, assume 62V at 15A = 930W which would need 77.5A out of a 12V battery. Perhaps there is a decimal point in the wrong place.
Later you say 1.24V at 10 to 20A, Assume ~15A this is 20W or under 2A from a 12V battery - very reasonable.
The common way to make a DC-DC convertor is to use a CMOS 4047 chip, this will run on 12V and its frequency is set by a resistor and capacitor. It has two outputs which can drive two MOSFETs (IRF540?) which then feed into a center tapped transformer wound to give out the required voltage. This will need to be rectified to get DC. I assume that the frequency range that you specify of 20kHz to 150kHz was decided by the type of transformer used. The frequency should be as low as possible without the transformer saturating, some experimenting will be necessary if you are going to wind your own transformer.
A transformer core and rectifiers can be found in a dead computer power supply. These often fail due to bad capacitors but you do not need these. I have previously used the core out of a TV line output stage.
Are you generating the hydrogen by electrolysis?
What electrodes will you use?
 
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