NEED HELP: PIC,Basic,Programmer aaagghhhh! HELP a newbie make a decision - which starter package sho

Hi all,

I am trying to pick a PIC to start learning about them.
I decided to go with PIC not STAMP.
I also decided to go with the Basic language (any version)
Many, many, many years ago I used assembly (on the 6800!!) and definitely
not the way to start now - I wanna keep it simple and fun. Basic I can
learn now, maybe get into ass'y later.

I am not new to electronics but I am new to PICs.

I am trying to decide what programmer to get.

I am thinking about getting the Vellemar VM111 which is the same as the
K8048 but assembled. Why you ask? It is the only one I've found here in
the Vancouver, B.C. area, on Main St. The price is rather steep at $95 (+
13% in taxes) specially now that the Canadian dollar is higher than the
US dollar because I've seen the same for U$56 on the web.
This board does not support any 18FXXXX, is this a problem? I read
somewhere it might be.

Will this programmer work with Basic? (or is this a stupid question?)

Would I be better off making my own programmer to start? (have plenty of
experience assembling electronics, though not sure I want to spend the
time unless it is quick) or is it OK to buy the programmer I named above?

Can I get a Basic and compiler for free or do I have to buy one?

Please don't start telling me I should be learning assembly.
Aside from that, any and all suggestions and links are welcome.

Thank you.

 

Don't touch that one. It supports a very limited range of PIC's, and
it's got no ICSP port which is essential.
Pulling your chip out and putting it back in your circuit every time
you want to program it really sucks. In-circuit programming is the way
to go.

I would find a programmer that supports them all (16, 18, 24 and 30
series) and be done with it. You will thank yourself later on.

Don't limit yourself to what you can buy in your local shop.

Yes, all programs will (or should) accept a standard HEX file which
the BASIC, C, assembler or whatever compiler puts out.

No, don't get that one for the reasons mentioned.
Don't build one. Buy a good pre-built name unit that supports all the
PICs. You don't want your DIY programmer stuffing up on you and
wondering if it's your programmer at fault or your circuit.

No, but C is probably better ;-)

Dave.

 

have a look at:
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/Dontronics-Newbies-Start-Here-sp-23.html
this should head you off in the right direction.

Don...


--
Don McKenzie

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Serial OLED uses standard micro-SD memory cards.
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/product.php?productid=16659

 

Thanks for your answers. I followed the other poster's suggestion to the
Dontronics site and I saw a "melabs USB U2 Programmer & Accessories #
16214" for about U$130 - is this something you'd recommend?

Also, I'm not quite sure how ICSP works. The picture for this programmer
shows a ZIF socket so I assume that the PIC has to be removed to be
programmed also.
Say for example you've designed a circuit and have made a PCB for it and
your PIC in soldered in place and everything is working fine. Then if you
want to re-program the PIC does ICSP mean you can do it right on your
board without removing the chip? or does it mean that your PCB design has
to include some sort of an ICSP port that would give the programmer
access to your chip?

Sorry to pester you with questions and thank you for your answers.

 

That other poster is Mr Dontronics himself ;-)
BTW, he has a good rep, you are safe buying through Dontronics.

That programmer looks perfect. It uses the ICSP interface and supports
all the ranges of PICs 16,18, 24, and 30 series.
Probably the only downside is that it's not MPLAB compatible, which
means you have to use the software that comes with it. Not a big deal.

No, the ZIF socket board just allows you to program the chip on it's
own if that's what you want to do. If you have ICSP on your own board
then you don't need that ZIF adapter and you can save some $$

Basically most programmers use the ICSP interface to program the chip,
but only some of them have the external connector so you can use it in-
circuit.

Correct, your design has to have an ICSP header connector, with a
pinout to match your MELABs board of course.
Then you never have to remove the chip, ever. You'll thank yourself
later when you have to reprogram your chip a hundred times during
debugging.

Also, the ICSP port allows you to use the Microchip ICD2 in-circuit
debugger.

Dave.

 

For an inexpensive programmer, take a look at Microchip's Pickit2.
With the MPLAB 7.62a release, the Pickit2 can now program the majority
of Microchip's processors, even the dsPIC family. The price is
certainly right.

If you'd like to ease into microcontroller programming in BASIC, take
a look at the Picaxe chips ( http://www.picaxe.co.uk ). They are PIC
processors loaded with a program that runs compiled BASIC code. You
don't need programming hardware; they are programmed via a serial link
from your PC.

Their Programming Editor (the entire development system, including
editor, compiler, program downloader, and even a simulator) is a free
download.

In Canada, you can order Picaxe chips from HVW Technonogies:
http://www.hvwtech.com/

Experimenting with Picaxe chips is a good way to ease into
microcontrollers, and let you develop your skills before you move on
to the PIC family. You can get your feet wet without a significant
initial investment.

If you want to start with PICs and a BASIC compiler, I'm afraid I
can't help you with a specific recommendation, but a Google search
using keywords 'pic basic compiler free' returns some hits.

Good luck!

Tom

 

ICSP stands for "In Circuit Serial Progamming" and it means exactly
what it says. You have it right.

If you look at any PICs pinouts, you'll see three that have the
designations MCLR, PGD, and PGC. Those stand for Memory Clear (or the
PIC's reset pin), Program Data, and Program Clock.

The ICSP interface consists of MCLR, +V, Ground, PGD, and PGC, in that
order.

When you design a circuit that includes ICSP, you'd typically include
a 5-pin male header. Two pins are connected to your circuit's +5 and
ground wiring. The other three are connected to the processor's MCLR,
PGD, and PGC pins.

(You can use the PGD and PGC pins for other functions in your circuit
with little or no consideration, but if your circuit needs a reset
button, you generally need to install a diode between the reset pin's
pullup resistor and the +5 volt line to keep the +13 volt (approx)
programming voltage away from your 5 volt supply.)

When it comes time to re-program your PIC, you plug your programmer's
ICSP cable to your circuit's ICSP header and download your program.
You don't have to remove your PIC from your board.

Many programmers include some sort of ZIF socket. If that programmer
also includes an ICSP header, you don't really need the ZIF socket
unless you're either just quickly testing a program or if you're
loading the same program into a number of identical PICs. A ZIF
socket is a nice feature, but it certainly isn't a necessity. (I have
two PIC programmers: a Pickit2 and an ICD2 clone. I seldom use the
ZIF socket on my ICD2 clone.)

Have fun!

Tom

 

WOW! I had no idea. We have a celebrity in the house!

A tip of the cap to Mr. Dontronics. Here's hoping that he'll have a
US distributor some time in the near future.

Tom

 

I would. It's a really good programmer.

 

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I know the feeling!

Nah, don't bother with that one - I got the K8048 and it wasn't
brilliant. I'd say the only benefit to the K8048 is that, with some
slight modifications, you can hang bread-board power supplies off the
regulators on the programmer.

I've been very satisfied with my ICD2 clone
(http://www.virtualvillage.com/Items/006401-001?) and use it for all my
current work. The version I have doesn't do 3.3volts too well, though it
appears the design has been revised since I purchased; the pictures now
show a serial connection mine lacks. For $63 it's a bargain.

You can build what's called a JDM programmer that hangs straight off the
serial port on your PC. They're slow as hell but cost less than £10 to
make and will do virtually any chip in production.

Saying that, I rarely ever program with my JDM - it is so useful to use
the serial port for debugging.

- --
Brendan Gillatt
brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBACD7433
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I second that one. A whopping $4 investment plus a handful of junk
room parts and you can be up and running. Well supported with a
forum. Works fine on DC from 5 volts to about 2.5 volts so a pair of
AA batteries to keep it in micro amps is all it wants. Easy to learn,
lots of capability built in.

If you want fun, this is a great toy.

 

So Picaxe is not PIC then? (newbie question...)

 

Thank you Dave for all your help and suggestions.
I think I got enough information to get started

 

Thank you Tom!!

I checked out http://www.hvwtech.com/ and it looks good.
The Picaxe it is to get me started!
These guys are in Calgary which is not too far to order.
They have a great site.

Thanks for your help.

 

Cool. I'll do a search and see, there must be lots of support and project
sites around.

Thank you.

 

Very complete information and definitely clarified a bunch of things for
me.
Thank you so much!

 

I'll do a search for JDM programmer and look into the ICD2.

Thank you for your help.

 

It is a pic. The pic is a Microchip brand that is preprogrammed with
a boot loader. The free software allows one to program in BASIC or
flowcharts and gives you some simulation capability and debug
capability - so when you use an on board A/D, for instance, you can
use your computer to read the digital value being returned by the A/D.

They range in an 8 pin version to a 40 pin version for varying amounts
of IO.

The 8 pin version uses an on-board resonator for a clock and you can
diddle the clock speed with poke commands. Everything is on the chip
- clock, IO, memory space, A/D, PWM, driver for a RC servo output,
sounds, etc..

I have electronics experience but little controller experience. This
has been great for learning and without a huge outlay in cash for a
"development system"

The development system is a run of the mill windows PC, with a serial
port, a solderless breadboard, three resistors and a RS232 cable and
connector.

You can download the software and play with programs even before you
have a chip in hand using the simulator - but it is more fun actually
using it.

Lot of data on the web.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICAXE

Various companies offer a series of custom PC boards with built in
power supplies and some breadboard space, but the chip is just as
happy on a solderless breadboard and with a pair of AA batteries for
power.

They are rugged but can be killed by exceeding the 5 volt power supply
or putting a low impedance load on an output pin - the outputs can
drive 20 milliamps so will work leds, piezo disks, servos, with a
minimum of circuitry.

 

Only in so much as it physically uses a PIC chip. It looks like a PIC
chip, and it smells like PIC chip, but you don't use it like a PIC
chip.
In theory the "PICAXE" could use any similar brand microcontroller as
it's core. It just happens to use a PIC chip so it's called a PICAXE.
But when you are programming it you aren't really programming a PIC
microcontroller as such, you are simply programming a higher level
interpreted language running code where all the hardware and software
tool problems are taken care of for you. Same thing with the BASIC
Stamps.

The problem here from a point of view of microcontroller experience is
that you can't really claim to be able to have programed PIC
microcontrollers. PICAXE doesn't look that great on the Resume, but
they are excellent for beginners to get simple project running.
Unfortunately PICAXE and BASIC Stamp experience won't help you much
when you decide to switch to a "real" microcontroller. All the usual
traps for young players will still be there.

Dave.