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My *Soundcard* MIDI Synth Dream

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by Radium, Mar 5, 2007.

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  1. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Hi:

    Creative Music Synth -- my favorite *soundcard*-based MIDI synth-- is
    the chip-based, hardware, digital FM synth present on the SoundBlaster
    16 ISA card. Creative Music Synth usually has and I/O address of 220
    -- hence, Creative Music Synth [220]. However, I have seen Creative
    Music Synth set at 240 on some PCs. Creative Music Synth does not --
    to any extent -- playback samples from memory. It freshly generates
    its tones. It is physically built to generates its tones from scratch
    without stealing any energy from the PC's main CPU. As such, Creative
    Music Synth does not have or need any moving parts -- no discs, no
    fans, etc.

    Notes on out-of-phase stereo signals in Creative Music Synth:

    1. I try playing Creative Music Synth, through my so called 'karaoke
    voice canceller' -- which inverts the phase of one stereo channel
    [right or left] and then combines it the other channel -- which
    results in anything identical in both the left and right channels
    being removed. I get a mono of what was different in the left and
    right channels. When I play the Creative Music Synth audio through the
    voice-canceller, it sounds more treble, sharper, brighter, warmer, and
    crisper [qualities that I like] than when I don't use the voice
    canceller. The waveforms with sawtooth-wave characteristics are phased
    differently in the L and R channels, while those with sine-wave
    characteristics are phased identically in the L and R channels.

    2. The voice-cancellor remove whats phased similarly in L and R while
    preserving what phased differently in the L and R channels. Sawtooth
    waves tend to give a much brighter and warmer feel than sine waves do.
    If anyone has a valid email address, I can email him/her two WMA audio
    files from the MIDI audio of Creative Music Synth. File A is converted
    to mono without inverting the phase of either channel. File B is
    converted to mono after inverting the phase of the left channel. IOW,
    file A is not "voice-cancelled", while file B is. After listening to
    them, you certainly will notice the difference I describe.

    3. The signals that are phased similarly in L and R are removed, while
    signals phased differently are not removed. I am sure -- though I
    could be wrong -- that Creative Labs deliberately made these phase
    differences in the stereo Creative-Music-Synth. The sounds that are
    phased similarly in L and R sound like sine-waves [such as a "whine"
    or "hum"] while the tones that are phased differently in L and R sound
    like sawtooth waves [such as a "buzz" or "fiz"]. AFAIK, thats just how
    the company designed the synth.

    Due to the above, my MIDI synth dream would be a mono, 64-bit-
    resolution, 2.88-Ghz-sample-rate, 40,000-voice, 4,000-operators-per-
    voice, 10,000-channeled**, version of Creative Music Synth based on
    the signals that were phased differently in the original Creative
    Music Synth. Creative Music Synth is a stereo FM synth who left and
    right signals are phased differently, this is why I get a different
    sound when I play it through voice-canceller. The signals of Creative
    Music Synth that have the same phase for both L and R have a more
    cheesy sine-wave quality which I don't care for. The signals in
    Creative Music Synth that are phased differently in L and R tend to
    resemble a fresher sawtooth-wave quality which I like. That is why I
    want my version of Creative Music Synth to be based on the sounds that
    were phased differently in the original Creative Music Synth. I want
    my version to be monoaural because I want all speakers to give out the
    same signal.

    **Yamaha's OPL3 has 18 channels


    Regards,

    Radium
     
  2. Bob Myers

    Bob Myers Guest

    And right about here is where the insanity kicks in...
    You still have absolutely no idea WHY you want any of the above,
    except for some completely absurd "bigger numbers are always
    gonna be better!" assumption on your part. You don't even know
    why the above numbers are silly to the point of causing hours and
    hours of uproarious laughter on the part of anyone reading your
    post.

    For just one example - how many of the supposed "64 bits" in
    the samples you're talking about would you expect to contain
    valid and/or significant information? Why?

    Bob M.
     
  3. Rick Massey

    Rick Massey Guest

    The four thousand operator part gets me. Not to even contemplate the
    processing power to keep all that straight, at that point the benefits of FM
    are far outshone by additive. A fundamental understand of acoustics would go
    a long way in figuring out why a lot of the above specifications are absurd
    beyond measure.
     
  4. Radium

    Radium Guest

    64 bit-resolution give 384 dB of dynamic range and
    18,446,744,073,709,551,616 possible levels of loudness.

    x-bit-resolution gives 6x dB of dynamic range.

    6(64) = 384

    x-bit-resolution gives 2^x levels of loudness.

    2^64 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,616
     
  5. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Why particularly that one?
     
  6. HellPopeHuey

    HellPopeHuey Guest

    Um, guys... Radium is a numbnutted troll and is only on here to bait
    the crowd with bandwidth-clogging drivel. Stop encouraging him or he'll
    just keep staining the carpets.

    --

    HellPope Huey
    If the neighbors play rock, beat 'em with sticks;
    If they play rap, kneecap them;
    but if they play opera, shoot 'em in the EYE.

    I can name the newscaster on The Simpsons,
    but I can't name my own congressman.
    And that's what makes America great.
    ~ Mark Hoppus (Blink-182)

    "Its disheartening to know that you live
    in a country that's just teeming
    with semi-literate, mediocre psychos."
    ~ Henry Rollins
     
  7. Guest

    And... I suppose that you can tell the difference between each and
    every level, yes?
     
  8. Guest

    Because many FM sounds, say on a DX7, have up to 6 operators - if
    that.

    I'd love to see you program a 4,000 operator FM sound with decent
    results and make it musically useful, without being random noise.
     
  9. Radium

    Radium Guest

    Why would 4,000-operator FM synth contain anymore random noise than a
    6-operator FM synth?
     
  10. Dave Platt

    Dave Platt Guest

    And... I suppose that you can tell the difference between each and
    every level, yes?[/QUOTE]

    #chuckle#

    This same sort of proposal came up on one of the audio newsgroups a
    decade or so ago... somebody was dissatisfied with the dynamic range
    of CDs and wanted a "future-proof" digital system spec.

    It was soon pointed out that if a system of this nature was adjusted
    so that the amplitude of the least-significant bit was set just at (or
    even somewhat below) the quietest sound that the human ear could hear
    against a background of silence in a perfectly noise-free room, then a
    full-amplitude signal would instantly release enough energy to blow
    the entire neighborhood (and perhaps the continent) into a ball of
    incandescent plasma.

    The general consensus was that such a system had only a very limited
    commercial appeal.
     
  11. Mr.T

    Mr.T Guest

    Probably akin to Granny Clampett, would make most men throw up, but there is
    always someone who will have a wet dream over it.:)

    MrT.
     
  12. Mr.T

    Mr.T Guest

    Not so, he's been posting the same insanity for years.

    MrT.
     
  13. Mr.T

    Mr.T Guest

    Sure can, for the first 90dB or so. It's the other ~300dB that is a bit of a
    waste :)
    But not to worry, nothing can reproduce over 130dB DNR in any case.

    MrT.
     
  14. Yeah, like DVB-T :))))

    I am sure it will last for fifty years, as PAL/NTSC satisfied...


    What you can do if you Receiver gets broken (and they do, very fast) is
    out of my imagination, but. That's business :), more for less.... not
    to mention the thrilling uparts (update, new version, service pack...)
    to come. Even more business. Energy economy is also profitting, or
    wasting, as you wish... Superb :) The eggs laying wool-milk sow,
    perfect! At least for the business type...

    And that all for a more crappy Picture. The best, they are!!! Wow, I am
    so impressed!!!! What a technical insight of living digital being...
    wow!



    Best Regards,

    Daniel Mandic
     
  15. Rick Massey

    Rick Massey Guest

    FM is a shortcut. It's a synthesis method developed to simulate, in rough
    terms, the same effect you get through Additive synthesis, as at the time
    Additive was expensive. (Hardware intensive, as well as computation
    intensive, in a time when you couldn't digitally create things in the chip
    realm like we can now) Once you exceed about 128 oscillators, (which, thanks
    to the typical arrangement of FM, means 64 operators) you've reached a point
    where additive is less hardware intensive than your theoretical FM synth,
    and also far more flexible.

    It just shows me that you don't know what you're really dealing with, don't
    know much about acoustics and how sound is created, and are just
    overinflating your numbers because you want some super synth that you really
    don't know anything about. That's why when you post stuff like that, no one
    takes you seriously.
     
  16. Rick Massey

    Rick Massey Guest


    You know, I don't agree. I have noticed some forward progress with him.
    Normally, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, but Radium seems to actually
    want to know things, and the responses it (not sure of gender) makes
    indicate that it is really interested in this topic, just highly confused
    and not firing on all cylinders. If we can make it see that it's coming off
    as a whackjob on this, and get it to actually learn a bit what it's talking
    about, which it has already shown some progress in, then there will be a net
    sum gain in humanity.
     
  17. Bob Masta

    Bob Masta Guest

    Please stop and consider waht you are suggesting.
    More bits will indeed give more dynamic range ("levels of
    loudness"). Presumably you want to be able to experience
    the full range, or else why bother about it? The softest
    sound you can hear is typically 0 dB SPL, so you'll be
    working up from there.

    Let's say you have a typical speaker system that can put
    out 90 dB at 1 meter for 1 watt input. The power doubles
    for each 3 dB increase, so to put out 384 dB you need
    384 - 90 = 294 dB above 1 watt, which is 98 doublings
    or 3.169 * 10^29 watts. This is roughly 3 times the total
    power output of the Sun. (I think you will need Monster
    speaker cables for that!)

    But back to your earlier question about the OPL3 and
    phase cancellation: You wonder what is happening in the
    OPL3 that causes the results you get when you run it
    through a "vocal cancellation" process. But why should
    you think this has anything at all to do with the OPL3,
    instead of the vocal cancellation circuit? I don't know
    anything about the particular device you are using,
    but it's common to allow some phase adjustment in
    case the vocalist isn't dead-center. You may be
    hearing the results of cancelling more low-frequency
    sounds than high-frequency due to this.

    Best regards,




    Bob Masta

    D A Q A R T A
    Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
    www.daqarta.com
    Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
    Science with your sound card!
     
  18. Bob Masta

    Bob Masta Guest

    Oops! That should have been "3 orders of magnitude
    more than the total power output of the Sun", which is
    about 3.86*10^26 watts. Hey, it's only 29 dB!

    Best regards,


    Bob Masta

    D A Q A R T A
    Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
    www.daqarta.com
    Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
    Science with your sound card!
     
  19. Guest

    Well, personally, I don't think you could program that many operators
    in the first place.

    After about the 10th or so, I can see you stacking 100s on each point.
     
  20. Or the military applications. Perhaps someone should build this Radium
    Soundcard and use it to take over the planet.

    I, for one, welcome the evil soundcard overlords.
     
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