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Multipath WLAN problem?

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Newsgroup,

After moving the office one of the things that doesn't work reliably
anymore (besides a dead printer and a dead Tektronix) is the WLAN. It's
a Linksys BEFW11S4 router with the routing parts disabled, to act only
as a wireless AP. Worked well for all those years.

Long story short I can achieve good to excellent signal strength in the
living area. However, while the connection via this WLAN point always
works just fine in the office it is very erratic in the living area of
the house. Frequent Internet access time-outs despite great signal
strength. We have insulation in all exterior and interior walls,
unfortunately aluminum backed.

Tried a parabolic reflector on one of the diversity antennas. Even more
signal, but same problem. Can't put it on both because that kills access
to part of the office. Any ideas?
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg wrote:

Long story short I can achieve good to excellent signal strength in the
living area. However, while the connection via this WLAN point always
works just fine in the office it is very erratic in the living area of
the house. Frequent Internet access time-outs despite great signal
strength. We have insulation in all exterior and interior walls,
unfortunately aluminum backed.

Tried a parabolic reflector on one of the diversity antennas. Even more
signal, but same problem. Can't put it on both because that kills access
to part of the office. Any ideas?

1. Could be configuration problem. Check the box "reconnect
automatically" in the wireless network setup. Disable Wireless-N, stick
with wireless-G.

2. Interferrence with some other equipment at 2.4GHz. Cordless phones,
wireless headsets, etc.


Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
Just some idea, with al those things not working,
did you ever check the mains voltage?
And scope it?


Yep, 121.6V, quite sinusoidal, plus it's all protected.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vladimir said:
Joerg wrote:



1. Could be configuration problem. Check the box "reconnect
automatically" in the wireless network setup. Disable Wireless-N, stick
with wireless-G.

It's very difficult to access this router because it sits behind another
router. So dynamic IP :-(

Anyhow, it doesn't offer much in terms of settings, basically you can
select whether you want to use only one antenna or do diversity on both
(which I have to). It works fine everywhere except in the living space
where the signal has to cross two walls with aluminum-foil fiber
insulation in them.

2. Interferrence with some other equipment at 2.4GHz. Cordless phones,
wireless headsets, etc.

That's what I had scoped out really well when installing it. Channel 2
was best and still is, nothing else going on on this channel.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:

It's planned. That area is the only one where I hadn't strung CAT-5 yet.
Made myself an access hole last year so now I can get there. But not
before spring, right now it's ugly down there. But: I want to be able to
just schlepp the little netbook to the living quarters so my layouter
can ping me with a new round of Gerbers when he does one of those urgent
jobs.

Actually sounds like multi-path.

Yep, just like this dreaded ATSC we'll get in June :-(

I wish WLAN had an option in the protocol where you could set it to 300k
or so in order to ruggedize a connection. But it's always full bore.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jan said:
I ask this, because I once had also very strange intermittent problems,
and could not find it, until I noticed that it appeared
every time heavy traffic drove by, so vibration of the house.
Scoped the mains, and there were these impulses every now and then.
Went looking found the mains fuse that was not turned in strong enough
(one of those white ceramics ones), and it had formed a burned black
contact.
Removed it, cleaned it, and the fuse holder, and problem gone.
The vibration of the traffic made that contact work like a microphone.

Such an intermittent contact can reset the processors in printers and
other equipment, while most of the time a voltmeter would show a correct
voltage, you just need to scope long enough.

Well, the Brother MFC printer isn't intermittent. Other than a backlit
LCD it's dead as a door knob. The Tektronix only emits intermittent
hissing sounds.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Possibility 1 - might be a noise problem. Do you have any other
devices in the area using the 2.4-gig ISM band? Wireless phones or
baby monitors, microwave ovens, that sort of thing?

Noise on channel 2 is quite low.

Possibility 2 - might be a multipath problem. 802.11b is rather
sensitive to multipath, and your aluminum-foil-backed insulation is
probably creating a very reflection-rich environment. Simply moving
your body around, or moving the laptop/PC an inch or so, or having
someone walk around in the room, might be altering the pattern of
cancellations and reinforcements enough to cause signal dropouts.

That's what I am afraid is taking place :-(

The strange thing is that while it works it does so at top speed. When
it quits it's totally dead for many seconds until it catches again.

Solutions might be:

- Upgrade to an 802.11g AP or router - the OFDM modulation is
reportedly less sensitive to multipath cancellation than the DSS
modulation used in 802.11b.

Yes, but probably would require also upgrading some of the computers but
is an option. One problem is that "modern" computers are dumbed down.
All the "diagnostics" you get is five bars. No dBm levels, packet
statistics and such, much better in the good old days. OTOH it's even
worse with "modern" TV sets. All the diagnstics you get there is a
picture or a blue screen.

- Run some wire, and either move you AP to a more central location or
add a second on a non-overlapping channel.

The 2nd AP may actually be a great idea. Thanks. Only thing is that the
'puters would have to be trained to switch when packet losses mount.
Which is probably something a "modern" OS cannot deliver.
 
B

Baron

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
It's very difficult to access this router because it sits behind
another router. So dynamic IP :-(

Double NATing ?
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
That's what I had scoped out really well when installing it. Channel 2
was best and still is, nothing else going on on this channel.

Did you check the full width of this channel? 802.11b channels
overlap, a lot. Channel 2 would conflict with anything on Channel 1
(or with devices below that frequency by several MHz) and with
anything on channels 3 through 6.
[/QUOTE]

Well, there is something (weak) operating on Ch1, and stuff on Ch6. Not
much choice. Unless I'd pull the main breaker on some neighbor's houses ;-)

Same scenario as years ago and Ch2 turned out to provide the best SNR.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
That's normally done by the chipset, its firmware, and the driver.

You'd set up the two APs on the same Ethernet segment, with the same
ESSID, on non-overlapping channels. When the PC scans and looks for
an AP for the ESSID it has been told to use, it'll normally try to
associate with the one having the stronger signal... which would be
your living-space AP if you're in that area.

However, that won't fix this problem. Strong signals don't mean much in
multipath. Same with the TV where often an analog channel comes through
strong and clear but their ATSC says "no signal".

It always connects alright and the signal is strong but then randomly
cuts out anyhow, for about 30-60secs at a time. Very annoying. I tried
to place the AP in different rooms but since they are all heavily
insulated the problem is more or less always there. RF bouncing back and
forth I guess. An AP smack dab in the living room would not likely pass
the inhouse permit process, SWMBO would loudly object ;-)

There's sometimes a "sensitivity" adjustment (in the AP admin
settings) which can be used to give PCs a hint of how far apart the
different APs are, and thus at what point the PC card/firmware/driver
should decide to drop its current AP association and re-scan and try
again with a different AP.

I wish they'd look for data integrity instead. In multipath you can have
a strong signal with lousy data integrity and a weak one that's
excellent. For example, the local Ch29 digital almost has the field
strength to light a CFL in the box but the picture falls apart all the
time. A few Bay Area channels 100 miles away are weak but work most of
the time. Of course, TVs don't have any data integrity indicators either
so it's a wild guess whether you can watch a movie to the end or not.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Ummm... those are *not* the same signals! The ATSC is on a different
RF frequency than the NTSC (quite possibly in an entirely different
band - e.g. NTSC might be on VHF low-band and the corresponding ATSC
up in the UHF region), at a much lower power, from a transmitter in an
entirely different location.

I've heard some stations do that (not so much in our area though) but
that sets them up for a serious black eye. Viewers buy new converter
box, most don't have analog pass-thru, they tune in ... nada ... whoops
.... numbers go down ... ad revenue goes down ... pink slips. In the
current economic condition that almost amounts to suicide from a
business point of view.

Comparing "Channel 6" NTSC and "Channel 6 ATSC" one-to-one is
comparing apples and oranges. Without further information (e.g. look
at the actual RF spectrum with an analyzer) you simply don't know
whether the signals are of similar strengths or not, or whether they
have similar amounts of multipath, or whether your antenna is dealing
with them in a comparable way.

Ch29 digital is where Ch48 used to be. On the analyzer it almost pegs to
overload. But signal strength can mean nothing in this area.

A 30-to-60-second outage is more than I would expect from an
occasional packet loss. It strikes me that something different might
be going on in your situation. It sounds more to me as if your PC is
completely losing its assocation with the AP and is having to
re-negotiate.

But it's all of them :)

First practical suggestion - have somebody observe the AP lights in
the office, while you do something to precipitate this problem (or
just wait until it occurs). See if the AP seems to be doing something
different than normal during the "dead time". Specifically, see if
its LED sequence suggests that it is rebooting.

Did that already. It just keeps its beacon going. Traffic slows to a
crawl. Seems to be trying but can't get through.

I had a problem somewhat similar to this a few years ago, involving an
Apple Airport 802.11 base station. It worked fine during light use,
but if I tried to download a large file I'd lose the signal for 30
seconds or more.

Turns out it was crashing under heavy load. The culprit: Apple was
one of many victims of the "capacitors with pirated, corrosive
electrolyte formula" problem. The main power-supply bypass caps in
the AP were rotting and had gone high-ESR. The AP worked OK under
light load, but when it started transmitting lots of data and drawing
more current from the power supply it would brown-out and reset.
Replacing the caps cured the problem.

Ah, thanks! Time to open it up and hanging the scope onto the rail. It
appears to have a buck switcher that takes a wide input range. Of
course, if the cap before the buck can't hold its water then it's all hosed.

I wonder whether your AP is having somewhat-similar problems... it
sounds as if it might be getting old enough. If it's boosting its TX
power on the fly in order to push a signal "through the walls" to your
living area, it might be overstressing itself.

Can you borrow another AP from somebody, substitute it for your
current one (with no other changes) and see whether the problem is the
same or different?

Not in this neighborhood, it's rather rural. But if I can't fix this
quickly I'll just buy another one and try that.

Interference remains a possibility - in particular, microwave-oven
interference. Some years ago I used a 2.4-gig audio/video sender to
distribute a composite-video signal from a TiVo DVR to a TV in another
room. It worked well most of the time... but whenever anyone in any
of the houses in our cul-de-sac started microwaving dinner, the video
became un-viewable and the audio roared loudly enough to hurt our
ears. 802.11b is vulnerable to similar problems. Possibly the
drop-outs correspond with somebody nearby turning on a microwave?

I've also tried at night where all the lights were off at the neighbors.
Unless one of the kids snuck out and reach into the freezer ...

Surely you can figure out how to install one in a concealed location?

The only option would be outdoors here. Inside it's like a metal maze
from an RF point of view.

Quite possibly they do - that's entirely up to the firmware.

If it *is* a multipath problem, installing another AP closer to your
living area is probably the best solution... even if it's unpolitical
and requires physical concealment of the AP behind a potted fern named
Fred.

Yeah, it might be needed. But right now it has to wait. My wife just
started ripping out the floor in the next office. Meaning a slight hint
"Hey, get over here with them tools, will ya?" If I was a bachelor I'd
have left the old flooring in there and not moved a thing. But ...
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Often this wasn't their choice at all.

Putting ATSC and NTSC on different frequencies is, of course,
completely necessary.

Using different transmitter sites, or much lower power, is sometimes a
matter of economics (e.g. independent station can't afford a second
full-power UHF transmitter).

In quite a few other cases (especially in crowded market areas) it
was mandated by the FCC. In some of these areas, the stations and the
FCC have really had to juggle around, to find "interim digital"
frequency slots for stations to use which did not result in
unacceptable interference to existing NTSC stations in the same or
adjacent coverage areas.

It surprises me that station owners haven't created a ruckus in the
media about that. Especially since they _own_ a media outlet.

Most stations which have been running their ATSC feeds at reduced
power (compared to their NTSC feeds) will be going up to full ATSC
power as soon as they can. In some cases they'll simply switch their
digital signal over to the frequency/transmitter/tower/antenna that
they were previously using for NTSC. In other cases, they may have to
wait until June, to let other stations go throught *their* frequency
switch and "get out of the way" in order to raise their own ATSC
transmit powr to their full post-transition level.

Another thing they forgot to tell folks is that frequencies will change
and that they must run the auto-search again once the switch cometh. I
don't want to be manning the phones in that week.

True... multipath can be the big issue.

I was speaking at lunch yesterday with a local ham who works for an
MPEG/ATSC-encoder manufacturer. He tells me that the chipsets used in
DTV converters (and HTDV sets) have gotten significantly better at
dealing with multipath in the past couple of years. The comparison a
few years ago of the multipath resistance of ATSC (8VSB modulation)
and the European DTV-T standard (which uses COFDM) rather gave 8VSB a
black eye - it's significantly less multipath-resistant than COFDM.
The silicon folks reacted by producing significantly better chips and
firmware - "3D" filters with more taps and more sophisticated filter
management.

Well, we got here two DTVs and two converter boxes, brand new. They all
pretty much keel over simultaneously. Typically when clouds roll in or
Fedex lumbers into Mather Field.

Enh? Don't follow...

All of the PCs with wireless in there do the same.

It'd be interesting to look at the spectrum in your living area at a
time when this happening, to see if any new noise spurs are showing up


Or, if the post-buck cap is going bad, there might be more HF ripple
and noise than the hardware can handle.

It is an absolute nightmare to open that Linksys. Plus I need to fix the
dang printer now, has all the supply voltages (I think) but won't work.
 
S

SoothSayer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Newsgroup,

After moving the office one of the things that doesn't work reliably
anymore (besides a dead printer and a dead Tektronix) is the WLAN. It's
a Linksys BEFW11S4 router with the routing parts disabled, to act only
as a wireless AP. Worked well for all those years.

Jump online and find and buy a pair of better antennas. Problem solved.

You also may be able to download third party firmware for it that allows
you to boost the power beyond the factory, consumer accessible setting
window.
Long story short I can achieve good to excellent signal strength in the
living area. However, while the connection via this WLAN point always
works just fine in the office it is very erratic in the living area of
the house. Frequent Internet access time-outs despite great signal
strength. We have insulation in all exterior and interior walls,
unfortunately aluminum backed.

Also make sure you are using a newer, more secure access methodology.
The old simple password, open broadcast method is insecure. Limit
wireless ports to the number you use. You can also turn it on and off via
an operating PC or even via web access, depending on your router.
Tried a parabolic reflector on one of the diversity antennas. Even more
signal, but same problem.

Well... it isn't 'true diversity'. You can also buy a long coax that
allows you to place an antenna away from the actual router.

Can't put it on both because that kills access
to part of the office. Any ideas?

The best thing to do is buy on ebay, an already upgraded router that
runs Linux and the WRT firmware upgrade that allows you professional
router setting and power levels on your consumer level router.

That router is: The world famous Linksys (Cisco owned) WRT54GS v3 for
max internal memory and CPU speed capacity. Mine was about $79 IIRC,
shipped. I upgraded the firmware on it as soon as I got it, so I know it
has nothing on it tucked away somewhere in the settings (these sellers
are legit).

Anyway, you can boost the piss out of it, if the new antennas don't
work.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1311&_nkw=linksys+wrt54g&_sacat=See-All-Categories
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Went looking found the mains fuse that was not turned in strong enough
(one of those white ceramics ones), and it had formed a burned black
contact.


Those damned round threaded fuses! You try soaking them out, you try
scrubbing them out... and still you get... ring around the collar!
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
Essentially the router part is disabled. It only acts as a hub, with one
port being wireless.


No. It's an intranet router, and the other is your Internet side
router.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
You live in a country with no hills. The highest one you have is >100km
away and only 322.5 meters high. I know, since I lived on the north
slope of it.

Your router WLAN is a LOCAL radiation device. You are not bouncing
anything off the nearby hills that is interfering with your WLAN usage.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Jan 1, 1970
0
In quite a few other cases (especially in crowded market areas) it
was mandated by the FCC. In some of these areas, the stations and the
FCC have really had to juggle around, to find "interim digital"
frequency slots for stations to use which did not result in
unacceptable interference to existing NTSC stations in the same or
adjacent coverage areas.


Some had to erect VERY expensive antennas.
 
Joerg said:
Hello Newsgroup,

After moving the office one of the things that doesn't work reliably
anymore (besides a dead printer and a dead Tektronix) is the WLAN. It's
a Linksys BEFW11S4 router with the routing parts disabled, to act only
as a wireless AP. Worked well for all those years.

Long story short I can achieve good to excellent signal strength in the
living area. However, while the connection via this WLAN point always
works just fine in the office it is very erratic in the living area of
the house. Frequent Internet access time-outs despite great signal
strength. We have insulation in all exterior and interior walls,
unfortunately aluminum backed.

Tried a parabolic reflector on one of the diversity antennas. Even more
signal, but same problem. Can't put it on both because that kills access
to part of the office. Any ideas?

Maybe tack against the wind and -reduce- the Tx signal strength?. I.e
hamstring some of the strong contenders fighting to open the door.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Archimedes' Lever said:
Your router WLAN is a LOCAL radiation device. You are not bouncing
anything off the nearby hills that is interfering with your WLAN usage.


I know. You had snipped Jan's remark that he doesn't believe in
multipath which I was responding to. If he had lived in this neck of the
woods he'd know different. ATSC in heavy multipath is the pits.
 
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