Monitoring Rates

[Robert L Bass]

A lot to put on a 20P (I hate zone doubling so I wouldn't use this panel if
I were selling this system).

The Vista-20P can handle 48 zones without zone doubling. This job is nowhere
near the panel's limit, Crash. If the gentleman wants Internet and GSM, it's
one of the few systems that meet his requirements.

You would put the temp sensor outside the sauna with a probe through the
wall...that kind of heat/moisture would destroy a transmitter the first time
out.

To do it that way he'll need a temperature sensor with remote probe that
requires no power. I used one from Grainger to activate the exhaust fan in
our generator room. I don't recall the make/model but it was less than $100
and it worked well for over 16 years. The unit had a flexible, copper tube
with the probe on the end.

Winland makes a programmable temp sensor hi/lo or old mechanical kind...not
sure if it goes that high temp <--this is wired sensor & power 4 cond...or
better yet 6.

The problem with the unit, as you noted, is it requires power. The gentleman
indicated he wants to go wireless. It can be had with a M-001-0081 high
temperature probe (32 to 299 F). Most of the Winland's mechanical temperature
sensors have been discontinued. The one mechanical unit that handles high
temperatures is the MTA-1. It's limited to 100C (212F) though.

We get a lot of orders for the 2- and 4-zone programmable models, mainly from
food storage facilities and the like.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[alarman]

Good point, the AT&T 8300 had a few more features

Um, yeah. Sure. That's what I meant.

 

[Crash Gordon]

I like the Binford 9000 myself.

--
**Crash Gordon**






| Mark Leuck wrote:
| > | >> Mark Leuck wrote:
| >>>
| >>> Dump that and put in an AT&T 8000, best damn panel ever made
| >>
| >> 2nd best.
| >> js
| >
| > Good point, the AT&T 8300 had a few more features
|
| Um, yeah. Sure. That's what I meant.
|
| --
| js
|
|

 

[Crash Gordon]

Yeppers. I just prefer a different panel once I go beyond the 20P basic.

--
**Crash Gordon**






| Crash Gordon wrote:
|
| >A lot to put on a 20P (I hate zone doubling so I wouldn't use this panel
if
| >I were selling this system).
|
| They have expanders ya know.
|
| --
|
| -G

 

[Crash Gordon]

ah but it is a solid panel.
I fact I've never really had any problems with Ademco stuff...it just
doesn't wow me.

--
**Crash Gordon**






|> Are there "issues" with the 20P?
| Yes, it is made by Ademco (now Honeywell).
| That is why there is the:
| Vista 20
| Vista 20HW
| Vista 20HWSE
| Vista 20P
| Vista 20PS
| Vista 20PSIA
| Vista 20SE
| Instead of just the Vista 20.
| For the Vista 20P there is:
| Vista 20P-1
| Vista 20P-2
| Vista 20P-3
| Vista 20P-5(IP)
|
|
|
|
| | > Yes, I was planning to use the wired expander modules, not doubling.
| >
| > Are there "issues" with the 20P?
| >
| > --
| > ...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 L2
| > "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
| > [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me]
| > --------------------------------------------------------------
| >
| >
| > | > > Crash Gordon wrote:
| > >
| > >>A lot to put on a 20P (I hate zone doubling so I wouldn't use this
panel
| > >>if
| > >>I were selling this system).
| > >
| > > They have expanders ya know.
| > >
| > > --
| > >
| > > -G
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Crash Gordon]

none that i've experienced.



--
**Crash Gordon**






| Yes, I was planning to use the wired expander modules, not doubling.
|
| Are there "issues" with the 20P?
|
| --
| ...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 L2
| "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
| [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me]
| --------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
| | > Crash Gordon wrote:
| >
| >>A lot to put on a 20P (I hate zone doubling so I wouldn't use this panel
| >>if
| >>I were selling this system).
| >
| > They have expanders ya know.
| >
| > --
| >
| > -G
|
|

 

[Crash Gordon]

only a few of us dinosaurs around that still pull spare pairs eh?
I gotta laugh at these fools that pull cheap shit 2 conductor to openings in
a block flat-top, built on slab of course.



--
**Crash Gordon**






| Crash Gordon wrote:
| > A lot to put on a 20P (I hate zone doubling so I wouldn't use this
| > panel if I were selling this system).
| >
| > You would put the temp sensor outside the sauna with a probe through
| > the wall...that kind of heat/moisture would destroy a transmitter the
| > first time out.
| > Winland makes a programmable temp sensor hi/lo or old mechanical
| > kind...not sure if it goes that high temp <--this is wired sensor &
| > power 4 cond...or better yet 6.
|
| Which reminds me...not too long ago you could buy 22/6, and even 22/8,
| 22/10, and 22/12 off the shelf. Now the counter geeks give me a blank
stare
| when I ask for it. They don't carry it any more. They just say, "Oh, just
| pull 2 22/4's." Well, duh. I want the multi cables though. I like them for
| keypads and motions.
| WTF?
| js
|
|

 

[Jim]

A lot to put on a 20P (I hate zone doubling so I wouldn't use this panel if
I were selling this system).

You would put the temp sensor outside the sauna with a probe through the
wall...that kind of heat/moisture would destroy a transmitter the first time
out.
Winland makes a programmable temp sensor hi/lo or old mechanical kind...not
sure if it goes that high temp <--this is wired sensor & power 4 cond...or
better yet 6.

--
**Crash Gordon**


| Crash:
| > I don't EVER takeover accounts that have equipment that I hate to work
| > with;
|
| Oh Crash, what an excellent segue for my next query.
|
| I have 18 2-wire homeruns covering all doors and windows plus 2 overhead
| garage doors. �Concealed mag/reed contacts on the doors, non-concealed
| mag/reed contacts on the windows, floor-mounted Amseco sensors on the
garage
| doors.
|
| Also have 7 4-wire homeruns to various keypad-height locations around the
| house.
|
| Am considering the following as a startup system:
| Vista-20P panel
| 6160RF keypad
|
| Future upgrades possible:
| - up to 10 2-wire smokes (2W-B or 528BXT?)
| - 7845i-GSM
| - 2x keyfobs; 5804E?
| - 7x rf GBD; 5853?
| - CO sensor; suggestions??
| - rf motion sensors; 5890PI
| - 3x rf flood sensors; suggestions??
|
| So, is this type of equipment generally acceptable (assuming correct
| installation)?
|
| Oh, and here's an off-the-wall question: �I have a sauna that cycles
between
| 85 and 100 deg C (185 to 210 deg F) when operating. �Two or three times,
the
| controlling thermostat has "stuck" and the sauna heated up to around 105C
| before it finally tripped. �Of course, there's a backup thermal cutout on
| the heater, but I would be more comfortable if I had a wireless temp
sensor
| that would trigger at 105C (220F). �Is there anything available for which
I
| could "dial in" the trip temp (and would withstand these high-temp
| conditions)?
|
| TIA
|
| --
| ...The Bit Eimer � � NAR 84054 � � �L2
| "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
| [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to email me]
| --------------------------------------------------------------
|
|

One of those old Ademco bi-metal 200� heat detectors might do the job.

 

[alarman]

only a few of us dinosaurs around that still pull spare pairs eh?
I gotta laugh at these fools that pull cheap shit 2 conductor to
openings in a block flat-top, built on slab of course.

I try to pull spares to everything. But even if you dont, a motion with a
tamper needs 6 unless you common up the tamper, which I consider a last
resort. 6 to a keypad is a no-brainer. 22/12 is real handy in residential
when you're trying to conceal a lot of circuits , or going from one end of
the house to the other, or pulling some protective loops out to a garage. I
sent a request for a quote to Contractors wire and cable, we'll see.
Probably have to take out a second on the house.
js

 

[Jim]

Which reminds me...not too long ago you could buy 22/6, and even 22/8,
22/10, and 22/12 off the shelf. Now the counter geeks give me a blank stare
when I ask for it. They don't carry it any more. They just say, "Oh, just
pull 2 22/4's." Well, duh. I want the multi cables though. I like them for
keypads and motions.
WTF?
js

I've been using Cat 3 telephone 6 pair 24ga for keypads for about 20
years now. (Napco has expansion zones available from each keypad,
which I bring back to the panel.) Cheaper in the long run and never
had a proplem.

 

[Robert L Bass]

...I just prefer a different panel once I go beyond the 20P basic.

Understood, but that doesn't mean the Vista-20P won't do the OP's job. In
fact, it's a good match given his requirements. I personally prefer Napco
Security over Honeywell, mainly because I have more experience installing and
programming them. Both systems can do this job.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Robert L Bass]

only a few of us dinosaurs around that still pull spare pairs eh?

We did that all the time. Once it even *caused* a problem. A lady (and I use
the term loosely in this case) insisted my technicians had not finished the
job although every sensor was installed and working properly. I said I was
sure it was compete so she had me look inside the panel. There were two extra
cables labeled "Spare A - Attic" and "Spare B - Garage". She demanded to know
why they were not connected to anything. I explained that the installers
pulled extra cables in case we might need to add something later. She didn't
believe that anyone would actually do *extra* work and not charge, even after
I explained that the idea was to save trouble for us in the future.

If I'd known what a PITA she was goiung to be I'd have referred her to
Jiminex. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Tech Support 941-925-8650
Customer Service 941-232-0791
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

 

[Crash Gordon]

yah...5 cond is reallll popular



--
**Crash Gordon**






| Crash Gordon wrote:
| > only a few of us dinosaurs around that still pull spare pairs eh?
| > I gotta laugh at these fools that pull cheap shit 2 conductor to
| > openings in a block flat-top, built on slab of course.
|
| I try to pull spares to everything. But even if you dont, a motion with a
| tamper needs 6 unless you common up the tamper, which I consider a last
| resort. 6 to a keypad is a no-brainer. 22/12 is real handy in residential
| when you're trying to conceal a lot of circuits , or going from one end of
| the house to the other, or pulling some protective loops out to a garage.
I
| sent a request for a quote to Contractors wire and cable, we'll see.
| Probably have to take out a second on the house.
| js
|
|

 

[Doug]

I try to pull spares to everything. But even if you dont, a motion with a
tamper needs 6 unless you common up the tamper, which I consider a last
resort. 6 to a keypad is a no-brainer. 22/12 is real handy in residential
when you're trying to conceal a lot of circuits , or going from one end of
the house to the other, or pulling some protective loops out to a garage.
I sent a request for a quote to Contractors wire and cable, we'll see.
Probably have to take out a second on the house.
js

You could use the DEOL option for the motions and have the tamper open the
loop that way you don't have to use up a zone for the tamper or use the -ve
as a common for the zone & tamper. With the cost of zone expanders so low,
it just doesn't seem as necessary to pull a multi-conductor as it used to.
Anyway I don't have room on my van for rolls of multi conductor.


Doug

 

[alarman]

I've been using Cat 3 telephone 6 pair 24ga for keypads for about 20
years now. (Napco has expansion zones available from each keypad,
which I bring back to the panel.) Cheaper in the long run and never
had a proplem.

That's not available either, at least not readily. Seems like anything but
22/4 and cat 5 is special order.

 

[alarman]

You could use the DEOL option for the motions and have the tamper
open the loop that way you don't have to use up a zone for the tamper
or use the -ve as a common for the zone & tamper. With the cost of
zone expanders so low, it just doesn't seem as necessary to pull a
multi-conductor as it used to. Anyway I don't have room on my van for
rolls of multi conductor.

Doug

Not being a residential guy, you wouldn't understand. Just so you know, we
don't run emt in houses, so the cabling has to be neat.
You need a bigger van.

 

[Doug]

--

Not being a residential guy, you wouldn't understand. Just so you know, we
don't run emt in houses, so the cabling has to be neat.
You need a bigger van.

No emt?, hows that work then

Doug

 

[Jim]

We did that all the time. �Once it even *caused* a problem. �A lady (and I use
the term loosely in this case) insisted my technicians had not finished the
job although every sensor was installed and working properly. �I said I was
sure it was compete so she had me look inside the panel. �There were two extra
cables labeled "Spare A - Attic" and "Spare B - Garage". �She demanded to know
why they were not connected to anything. �I explained that the installers
pulled extra cables in case we might need to add something later. �She didn't
believe that anyone would actually do *extra* work and not charge, even after
I explained that the idea was to save trouble for us in the future.

If I'd known what a PITA she was goiung to be I'd have referred her to
Jiminex. �:^)

Seems to me that you always brag about bringing a four wire to every
opening and a home run from every opening. So in your little imaginary
story above ..... how come she would only be looking at the 2 "extra
wires"?

"Go ahead burglar, make my day" HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

At least she would have someone who isn't a phony and a liar.

How's the cancer? Can you hear it chomping away inside?
Don't worrry. Eventually it'll eat through all that fat. One thing
you'll never have to worry about though, cancer of the brain.

Well, toodles to ya Death Breath ..... see ya .... well ...... I guess
not.

 

[Jim]

--









No emt?, hows that work then

Liquid Wire stiffener.

 

[Jim]

That's not available either, at least �not readily. Seems like anything but
22/4 and cat 5 is special order.

Yes it is special order but I just order it a couple times a year and
stock it. It's compact ( ie. smaller than 22ga) thousand foot boxes.
The difference in resistance is insignificant for normal residential
and light commercial use as keypad runs and to ease wire wrangling
multiple four conductor wires, on long runs. I've used it for years
for anything under or around 100 feet runs without ever having one
problem resistance wise. The only reason 24 gauge isn't recommended is
because it's easy to not strip it properly with miller strippers and
nick the wire. But other than that and contrary to the common myth,
the resistance of 24 guage wire for normal burglar alarm use is quite
acceptable even for power to PIR's and such. If you've got concerns
about it, just figure the wire resistance versus voltage drop over
less than 100 foot runs, and you'll see what I mean.

Just ordered some so I've got the number at hand.
Superior Essex 18-341-33
6X24 UTP Cat3
CMR GY 1KFT PB