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Magnet coil help (turns, gauge, for coilgun)
- Thread starter supak111
- Start date
This surprises me. I was off on the Garand, as it weighs 9.5lbs empty but the 16 always felt like a toy rifle to me in comparison. If you want a heavy attention getter, that would be the M2 .50Cal. It's an oldie but a goody.
Chris
The handheld version of "my design" with even the cheap parts I'm using would still only weight about 10-15lbs at worst, if I had top of the line mil spec caps, bats... it would even be smaller, lighter and more powerful.
Handheld version would only do about 1 silent shot per about 10 sec but the end goal is to have it reach about 5k+ fps (my prototype is till smaller then that still). Its something I'm hoping snipers in the military would like. And who wouldn't, silent sniper that's hopefully deadly at 1.5+miles.
Hypothetical 2000 per sec shooter would be huge and something mill would be mounting on their ships... They are spending millions on railgun research for their ship fleet so they can have a 10-30miles radios protection around their ships. This is totally possible, I've read someplace that they might be using ALL of the power from the nuclear reactor to power the railgun, if they did a fraction of power with my design coilgun they could be firing thousands of projectiles at mach 5+, no enemy airplane nor missile would be able to get nowhere near any ship with such weapon.
I know someone that's an engineer for a company that makes "something" for mil airplane and I have an idea of the kinda money mil spends on stupid ****. Which is why I'm even more sure that this is feasible. They spend money because its just a matter of time before someone find a good or good enough design in whatever field of research they support. And believe it or not my design would improve the rail-gun. Its what I was originally working on when I came up with the idea, I just don't have the resources to build/test that. I would need to spend $5-10k to have a good enough prototype and I rather spend that much on 10 different projects, not one.
Handheld version would only do about 1 silent shot per about 10 sec but the end goal is to have it reach about 5k+ fps (my prototype is till smaller then that still). Its something I'm hoping snipers in the military would like. And who wouldn't, silent sniper that's hopefully deadly at 1.5+miles.
Hypothetical 2000 per sec shooter would be huge and something mill would be mounting on their ships... They are spending millions on railgun research for their ship fleet so they can have a 10-30miles radios protection around their ships. This is totally possible, I've read someplace that they might be using ALL of the power from the nuclear reactor to power the railgun, if they did a fraction of power with my design coilgun they could be firing thousands of projectiles at mach 5+, no enemy airplane nor missile would be able to get nowhere near any ship with such weapon.
I know someone that's an engineer for a company that makes "something" for mil airplane and I have an idea of the kinda money mil spends on stupid ****. Which is why I'm even more sure that this is feasible. They spend money because its just a matter of time before someone find a good or good enough design in whatever field of research they support. And believe it or not my design would improve the rail-gun. Its what I was originally working on when I came up with the idea, I just don't have the resources to build/test that. I would need to spend $5-10k to have a good enough prototype and I rather spend that much on 10 different projects, not one.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 25,510
So, with your prototype... How many coils, what mass projectile, and what is the final velocity?
LOL... I have spent more then that making prototypes that were far less complicated, you won't even be able to pay to have the properly rated parts machined for your budget...
Also your rail gun will NOT be silent at the velocities you are talking about, it's that pesky thing called physics that you seem to keep ignoring (or don't understand) getting in the way again...
I never said a railgun would be silent bud. I only want the handheld coilgun to be close to silent. The big coilgun that would shoot 1000s of projectile doen't need to be silent whatsoever.
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Still using the 9.5mm 3.5g ball bearings with the prototype. I'll probably to 20 coils to start. My goal is to test a few things such a:
- if I can get the coils to fire fast, say 1000hz and see how much heat inefficiency I will have.
- I am designing a water cooled coils, and will probably do water cooler IGBTs. IGBTs I can easily cool off with a cooper water block (things you use to cooler computer CPUs when you overclock the hell out of them) but I will not have the radiator or a fan, I will just let the water boil so the copper block and IGBTs "should" stay around 100c, or at least that's what I need to test.
- I need to test this water cooler coil design where I want to have the coil surround the barrel, and then have the coil be surrounded by a plastic cup/tank and fill the cup/tank with water so the actual coil wounding will be sitting in water to have max surface area to cool the coil wire fast. But of course there are problems. I still don't know what the water will do to the magnet wire and the coating on the wire? What effect will the water have on the magnetic force?
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Still using the 9.5mm 3.5g ball bearings with the prototype. I'll probably to 20 coils to start. My goal is to test a few things such a:
- if I can get the coils to fire fast, say 1000hz and see how much heat inefficiency I will have.
- I am designing a water cooled coils, and will probably do water cooler IGBTs. IGBTs I can easily cool off with a cooper water block (things you use to cooler computer CPUs when you overclock the hell out of them) but I will not have the radiator or a fan, I will just let the water boil so the copper block and IGBTs "should" stay around 100c, or at least that's what I need to test.
- I need to test this water cooler coil design where I want to have the coil surround the barrel, and then have the coil be surrounded by a plastic cup/tank and fill the cup/tank with water so the actual coil wounding will be sitting in water to have max surface area to cool the coil wire fast. But of course there are problems. I still don't know what the water will do to the magnet wire and the coating on the wire? What effect will the water have on the magnetic force?
Silent?? Supersonic projectiles, even bullets, are not silent. Ever hear a .308 picket fencing?
Chris
Sorry Skippy, I actually read your previous post, you know the one you typed?
But, backpedaling has become the norm in this thread by you when informed of those pesky physics you seem to continue to ignore, so it's no surprise you are doing it yet again...
Doesn't work that way, again real world not fantasy... The water will sink the heat away but it's far from perfect heat transfer, the parts will exceed 100c if they produce heat in excess of what the water can sink at that instant...
You guys are twisting everything on its head. Forget the silent remark, coilgun anyway you look at it could potentially be better then say a .50cal snipper riffle used today for shots over 1mile away. Dont forget coilguns have no muzzle flash which is one of snippiers worst enemy. BTW ever heard or fired a 50cal Barrett? A large coilgun for ships, will still be better then long range defense artillery used today. And even if its not quieter it doesn't matter lol, its not why I'm building it in the first place. Remember I'm building it in the first place because I have a new design and I want to see how well it compares to everything tried to this date. That's the whole point of the forums isn't it? Not to get bashed but get help hopefully. Just because my coilgun wont be silent isn't going to discourage me not to build it. If I was that undetermined I would have quit like everyone else a long time agooo.
I have a dozen other much harder obstacles, such as: my design needs a strong barrel, but using metals is a problem because of eddy currents. Any ideas what material to use? So far best I can come up with is stainless steel because of it low conductivity, and then cut slits in the barrel to lower eddy currents even further.
And CocaCola, I haven't yet tried the water cooling on the IGBTs. That's what I have to test. IGBTs can handle upto 150c? I don't see them getting to 150c but that's why we experiment and test.
Any though on having the coil sit in water? What could that do to the magnet wire coating? And what effect could the water actually touching the wires have on the magnetism.
I have a dozen other much harder obstacles, such as: my design needs a strong barrel, but using metals is a problem because of eddy currents. Any ideas what material to use? So far best I can come up with is stainless steel because of it low conductivity, and then cut slits in the barrel to lower eddy currents even further.
And CocaCola, I haven't yet tried the water cooling on the IGBTs. That's what I have to test. IGBTs can handle upto 150c? I don't see them getting to 150c but that's why we experiment and test.
Any though on having the coil sit in water? What could that do to the magnet wire coating? And what effect could the water actually touching the wires have on the magnetism.
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This is a few and far between use... And said 50 cal can EASILY be carried around all day by a single guy, I suspect by all estimates you will need a Hummer and trailer to haul your design around...
Parking his Hummer and unloading his gun from the trailer with the help of a multiperson crew is a far worse enemy in said scenario... Show me your hand help WORKING prototype that he can easily carry and conceal like the already existing and function 50 cal, producing in excess of 15,000 joules of muzzle enegy then you can lean on said comparison, until then you are comparing your imagined idea to reality... And this is beyond apples to oranges...
Yep, both... But, not that often as it's a costly beast to take to the range for a day... But, anytime I'm willing to pony up for the ammo my buddy is more then willing to dust off his semi auto Barrett and have a day at the range...
Powder based artillery has many, many years of reliability and proven performance... This alone is a huge advantage in any real world military application and is the reason the military has never just flat out dropped a proven design for an unproven one...
So why bring it up and argue it?
Yes, you do...
It will make your gun even more unpractical, when is the last time you saw a water cooled gun in combat? Yep, not practical in the real any longer, especially in a hand help weapon... Lots of potential issues with water, pressure build up, steam, corrosion, weight, will it perform as expected and the list could go on...
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Lets introduce some real world facts and physics...
You clearly stated and I quote
Lets forget about your exaggeration of mil-spec items for a minute as once again physics set the rules not the military... Yes, the military can trim a few corners over mass produced consumer stuff (dependent upon cost) on some things but they can't defy physics and shrink 10 lbs of poop into a 1 lb block... There is no huge imaginary gap on the battery and capacitor tech as you are portraying...
Water weighs about 8lbs a gallon... How much do you plant to use to cool this? Remember less water = less cooling potential, and even at 1/4 of a gallon you just consumed a large percentage of your target weight and have very little cooling ability overall... If you are to abandon the water cooling in the final design, how much heat sink material do you plan to use? How 'bulky' is this going to be?
Copper isn't exactly light weight, to give you a real world idea, 150 pennies (3 rolls) weighs about a pound... How small/big are your coils? How many pounds of copper are you using in said coils? Your 120 foot roll of 14g wire is about 1.5 lbs in it's own...
Battery, you stated
How about the rest of the guns construction? The barrel, maybe just a few pounds there? Care to elaborate on what you plan to build it with that can handle the forces it will experience? Remember a bulk of the weight of a traditional gun is simply the 'frame' something you will need to nearly replicate if forces are to be equal, but you also now have to integrate the entire propulsion system into said design and maintain the same weight, how?
How long is this gun going to be? How many stages? I believe (memory recall) earlier we were at about 16 feet of barrel length and 100 stages, you need to get this down to the 2 foot range for a hand held weapon... 100 stages in 2 feet means each coil has to be about 1/4" long, not much room for strong producing coils in that limited space...
Again you really need to step out of imaginary land and return to Earth and our reality where physics apply...
Bob, explained a huge real world issue (as have others) and you just gloss over them as if they don't exist and steam roll forward as if the problem was solved just because you ignored it...
This is tin foil hat land mentality, not reality...
Let the helium out and return to Earth, build a working prototype that is superior to a 22 cal pellet gun before you brag about it being a 50 cal replacement or defense system for a naval fleet...
You clearly stated and I quote
This is going to be a necessity if you goal is to replace traditional infantry weapons... Again not an option a requirement to keep weight to a minimum...
Lets forget about your exaggeration of mil-spec items for a minute as once again physics set the rules not the military... Yes, the military can trim a few corners over mass produced consumer stuff (dependent upon cost) on some things but they can't defy physics and shrink 10 lbs of poop into a 1 lb block... There is no huge imaginary gap on the battery and capacitor tech as you are portraying...
Water weighs about 8lbs a gallon... How much do you plant to use to cool this? Remember less water = less cooling potential, and even at 1/4 of a gallon you just consumed a large percentage of your target weight and have very little cooling ability overall... If you are to abandon the water cooling in the final design, how much heat sink material do you plan to use? How 'bulky' is this going to be?
Copper isn't exactly light weight, to give you a real world idea, 150 pennies (3 rolls) weighs about a pound... How small/big are your coils? How many pounds of copper are you using in said coils? Your 120 foot roll of 14g wire is about 1.5 lbs in it's own...
Battery, you stated
Those batteries weigh in at about 1 lb a pop... There just went 3 lbs or about 1/4 of your target weight...
How about the rest of the guns construction? The barrel, maybe just a few pounds there? Care to elaborate on what you plan to build it with that can handle the forces it will experience? Remember a bulk of the weight of a traditional gun is simply the 'frame' something you will need to nearly replicate if forces are to be equal, but you also now have to integrate the entire propulsion system into said design and maintain the same weight, how?
How long is this gun going to be? How many stages? I believe (memory recall) earlier we were at about 16 feet of barrel length and 100 stages, you need to get this down to the 2 foot range for a hand held weapon... 100 stages in 2 feet means each coil has to be about 1/4" long, not much room for strong producing coils in that limited space...
Again you really need to step out of imaginary land and return to Earth and our reality where physics apply...
Bob, explained a huge real world issue (as have others) and you just gloss over them as if they don't exist and steam roll forward as if the problem was solved just because you ignored it...
This is tin foil hat land mentality, not reality...
Let the helium out and return to Earth, build a working prototype that is superior to a 22 cal pellet gun before you brag about it being a 50 cal replacement or defense system for a naval fleet...
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Supak,
I am not trying to discourage you from experimenting. I think this project could be a great learning experience for you. But as C.C. and I, and others have pointed out, your expectations are far from realistic. Tone it down a bit and try to learn as you go. First, make a single coil, get the timing sequence right for it, measure all of it's characteristics, THEN start thinking about what you might do with multiple coils and what kind of performance it it will have.
As C.C. has said, if you could match the perfromace of my only gun, which is a cheap low performance pellet gun, in a device that was as portable and practical, I would be very impressed.
Bob
I am not trying to discourage you from experimenting. I think this project could be a great learning experience for you. But as C.C. and I, and others have pointed out, your expectations are far from realistic. Tone it down a bit and try to learn as you go. First, make a single coil, get the timing sequence right for it, measure all of it's characteristics, THEN start thinking about what you might do with multiple coils and what kind of performance it it will have.
As C.C. has said, if you could match the perfromace of my only gun, which is a cheap low performance pellet gun, in a device that was as portable and practical, I would be very impressed.
Bob
You guys are bring up a lot of great concerns to my attention and I thank you for it. Truth is I am not skipping over any problems you are bring up, I am simply saying that If you mentioned it and I didn't seem to acknowledge it, its because it isn't a problem in my design. Some are not, some still are such as:
- HEAT. I need to figure out better IGBTs then ones I got. 600v igbt seem to have lower saturation V, but I don't even need 600v igbts, are there say 100v igbt that have a very low saturation V? Maybe better to use power mosfets? I really really wish I could keep it down to one switch and not have to parallel them. Datasheet for the 660v igbts says gate max is 6v, but my 1200v igbt doesn't say anything about max gate V? So I can't go over 6v on those but on my 1200v igbts I can use my 13v battery to power them?
- COIL HEAT, again if my water cooling doesnt work it will have a problem but I think cooling my switching device will be more of a problem.
- BARREL. Material used for it needs to resist eddy currents.
- PROJECTILE. Eddy currents in the projectile are a problem a well, powdered metallic material would be best.
And btw I am keeping it simple and not building a 50 cal replacement now, I am simply saying that if this prototype works there is no reason a scaled up model wouldn't work. Especially one that had all my issues corrected by a few mechanical and electrical engineers.
- HEAT. I need to figure out better IGBTs then ones I got. 600v igbt seem to have lower saturation V, but I don't even need 600v igbts, are there say 100v igbt that have a very low saturation V? Maybe better to use power mosfets? I really really wish I could keep it down to one switch and not have to parallel them. Datasheet for the 660v igbts says gate max is 6v, but my 1200v igbt doesn't say anything about max gate V? So I can't go over 6v on those but on my 1200v igbts I can use my 13v battery to power them?
- COIL HEAT, again if my water cooling doesnt work it will have a problem but I think cooling my switching device will be more of a problem.
- BARREL. Material used for it needs to resist eddy currents.
- PROJECTILE. Eddy currents in the projectile are a problem a well, powdered metallic material would be best.
And btw I am keeping it simple and not building a 50 cal replacement now, I am simply saying that if this prototype works there is no reason a scaled up model wouldn't work. Especially one that had all my issues corrected by a few mechanical and electrical engineers.
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So you have found ways to violate physics and circumvent laws of nature?
Quite the contrary there are many reasons...
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...
I repeat build a working prototype that is superior to a 22 cal pellet gun, and I might start to take your design with a grain of salt...
Here are some specifications that would meet the above criteria, when you have a prototype working with these specifications feel free to share the results... You will have surpassed every hand held coil gun I have seen a 'hobbyist' build...
Weight under 6lbs
Length under 36"
Muzzle energy in excess of 100 joules while having a theoretical effective range of 50 yards with a grouping of 1" at that distance...
Once you get to the huge milestone, try to tweak it to be compatible to say a 22lr bullet while maintaining the same weight and size...
Meaning muzzle energy in excess of 200 joules while having a theoretical effective range of 100 yards with a grouping of 1" at that distance...
Thats what I'm working on right now, I just need a little help before I put everything together. 6lbs is the only one I may have a problem with but I'm too worried as this is my first prototype.
Can you answer this for me:
My coil/s will be 14g 120ft of wire, I wan to make my coil only 1" maybe 2" wide so it will have more layers but not many rows. Is there any difference in force the coil will make (wide VS tall) (more layers VS more rows) if I still use same 120ft of 14g wire for both?
I want it less wide, more tall, so that the projectile is close to the middle of the coil as my opto switch will still right before the entrance to the coil.
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Online calculators aren't really giving me a definite answer. I wish I wouldn't have to wind the coil twice just to find out. Winding 14g wire isn't easy
Hey guys I found an inverting mosfet driver "TC4429CAT", does that mean I can use it to inver the opto switch signal AND power my IGBT with it, so no need to use a NOR gate too? So do: Opto Switch --> TC4429CAT --> IGBT?
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