Low-Power Solar?

[(PeteCresswell)]

I'm looking in to putting an IP camera on an outbuilding and
maybe one of those flood lights that is triggered by motion.

Running AC to the building sounds more formidable the more I read
about it.

OTOH, a wireless version of the IP camera's 24-7 draw is less
than 10 watts and the flood light could be set up to only shine
for a minute or so after detecting motion.

Unencumbered by any knowledge or expertise, I am led to thinking
maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

Is the scale/complexity of something like this small enough so it
would compete favorably with a couple thou to hire an electrician
to run 120v to the outbuilding?

 

[vaughn]

or expertise, I am led to thinking
maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

What voltage DC does the IP camera run from? Assuming it's 12 volts or less,
dispense with the inverter and run everything from DC.

You really need to know exactly how much that IP camera draws to size your solar
system. Compared to the 24/7 drain of that camera, the light is nothing.

Don't forget the regulator! In this case, another important bit might be a
low-voltage disconnect. That would disconnect the load to protect the battery
if you have too many cloudy days and it's charge state gets too low...

Vaughn

 

[bw]

I'm looking in to putting an IP camera on an outbuilding and
maybe one of those flood lights that is triggered by motion.

nencumbered by any knowledge or expertise, I am led to thinking

maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

Is the scale/complexity of something like this small enough so it
would compete favorably with a couple thou to hire an electrician
to run 120v to the outbuilding?

A 10 watt load times 24 hours a day is 240 watt-hours per day. Average
insolation on a 100 watt peak solar photovoltaic panel (about 1 square
meter) will produce around 400 watt-hours a day on average over the year,
but much less in December-January. If you are in the SW then you will get
more than 400 watt-hours a day, but if you are north of 40 degrees, or in
the northeast then you will need more area.
You will lose at least 25 percent charging the battery. Never use a cheap
automotive battery. A marine trolling battery will work for a few years, but
try to find a couple golf-cart batteries.
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publications/pdf/FSEC-RR-54-98.pdf

 

[Winston]

I'm looking in to putting an IP camera on an outbuilding and
maybe one of those flood lights that is triggered by motion.

Running AC to the building sounds more formidable the more I read
about it.

OTOH, a wireless version of the IP camera's 24-7 draw is less
than 10 watts and the flood light could be set up to only shine
for a minute or so after detecting motion.

Unencumbered by any knowledge or expertise, I am led to thinking
maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

Is the scale/complexity of something like this small enough so it
would compete favorably with a couple thou to hire an electrician
to run 120v to the outbuilding?

Personally, I don't think so.
I would *seriously* consider doing some NEC homework
and trenching and installing conduit myself.
The high - priced talent can do great quality wiring
at both ends afterword.

Photovoltaics are still 10x too expensive for any
reasonable payback, for most on-grid applications.

Battery backup in the shed is still a good idea though.

--Winston

 

[vaughn]

I would *seriously* consider doing some NEC homework
and trenching and installing conduit myself.

If you do decide to trench, my standard advice applies. Think WAY ahead and put
plenty of pipe in that trench to meet all of your future needs. Water,
Internet, TV Air, Phone etc etc etc. Trenches are a bitch. Conduit is cheap.

Another possibility: Forget the NEC, forget the expensive solar power. Do
everything in 12 VDC, but power it from the grid by running "Malibu" landscape
lighting cable out to your shed. Connect cable to a 12 volt DC power supply.
Malibu cable is available at any Home Depot. I've been using the stuff for my
12 Volt outside lights for years now (which are powered by my solar power
system, but that's another thread.)

Vaughn.

 

[Gordon]

I'm looking in to putting an IP camera on an outbuilding and
maybe one of those flood lights that is triggered by motion.

Running AC to the building sounds more formidable the more I read
about it.

OTOH, a wireless version of the IP camera's 24-7 draw is less
than 10 watts and the flood light could be set up to only shine
for a minute or so after detecting motion.

Unencumbered by any knowledge or expertise, I am led to thinking
maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

Is the scale/complexity of something like this small enough so it
would compete favorably with a couple thou to hire an electrician
to run 120v to the outbuilding?

You can buy a solar powered motion sensing light at Home depot.
Turnkey, all set to go.

That's half your battle.

 

[amdx]

I'm looking in to putting an IP camera on an outbuilding and
maybe one of those flood lights that is triggered by motion.

Running AC to the building sounds more formidable the more I read
about it.

OTOH, a wireless version of the IP camera's 24-7 draw is less
than 10 watts and the flood light could be set up to only shine
for a minute or so after detecting motion.

Unencumbered by any knowledge or expertise, I am led to thinking
maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

Is the scale/complexity of something like this small enough so it
would compete favorably with a couple thou to hire an electrician
to run 120v to the outbuilding?

Nice analysis by John about solar collector and battery sizing.
BTW, I like this "Unencumbered by any knowledge or expertise"
Can I use it? Never mind I'm stealing it.
Mikek

 

[Pete C.]

I'm looking in to putting an IP camera on an outbuilding and
maybe one of those flood lights that is triggered by motion.

Running AC to the building sounds more formidable the more I read
about it.

OTOH, a wireless version of the IP camera's 24-7 draw is less
than 10 watts and the flood light could be set up to only shine
for a minute or so after detecting motion.

Unencumbered by any knowledge or expertise, I am led to thinking
maybe this could be a solar application: automobile battery and
el-cheapo inverter in the shed, collector panel on the roof, some
sort of box to facilitate panel's charging the battery...

Is the scale/complexity of something like this small enough so it
would compete favorably with a couple thou to hire an electrician
to run 120v to the outbuilding?

Do not try to do this as an AC project, it will cost more than running
normal AC power to the outbuilding. The IP camera most likely takes
12VDC or perhaps 5VDC input so you should be looking at a DC setup.
Since there are solar shed lights with motion detectors readily
available, look at one of those and see what voltage it runs at. Since
they are probably spec'd pretty tight, look to using two setups, one for
the motion detector light and another to hack and replace the motion
detector light with the IP cam. Don't try to change batteries since the
panel included is only spec'd to charge the battery included.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Thanks John.
Thanks Winston.
Thanks Gordon.
Thanks Pete

In light of the abovementioned wisdom, here's my plan:
----------------------------------------------------------
1) Run Cat5e to the shed and just leave it laying on the
ground pending proof-of-concept.


2) Use a POE-compliant IE camera or power the camera with
a POE splitter.


3) If things work out with just the cam, get some of that
Cat5e with the goop inside that's meant for burial
and bury it any way I can.


4) If the cam still needs a light, try the solar-powered
flood, but don't get my hopes up capacity-wise.


5) If the combo solar-flood/cam is still not getting it,
call an electrical guy for an estimate - stipulating
I bury the cable per his specs and his job is limited
to terminating said cable at each end.


6) Bury the Cat5e and whatever the electrical guy specs
for the 120v in 2" PVC pipe (or whatever is acceptable
to him) leaving a few pull strings against future bright
ideas from Yours Truly.

Use a DitchWitch, try for 18" deep and settle for 6"
if necessary (we are on a shale ridge)

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per vaughn:

Another possibility: Forget the NEC, forget the expensive solar power. Do
everything in 12 VDC, but power it from the grid by running "Malibu" landscape
lighting cable out to your shed. Connect cable to a 12 volt DC power supply.
Malibu cable is available at any Home Depot. I've been using the stuff for my
12 Volt outside lights for years now (which are powered by my solar power
system, but that's another thread.)

Are there "code" considerations with 12v wiring outside?

I'm hoping to hear "no", but in other threads I have seen
references to differing electrical potentials in the two
buildings creating some sort of un-named hazard.

 

[amdx]

Thanks John.
Thanks Winston.
Thanks Gordon.
Thanks Pete

In light of the abovementioned wisdom, here's my plan:
----------------------------------------------------------
1) Run Cat5e to the shed and just leave it laying on the
ground pending proof-of-concept.


2) Use a POE-compliant IE camera or power the camera with
a POE splitter.


3) If things work out with just the cam, get some of that
Cat5e with the goop inside that's meant for burial
and bury it any way I can.


4) If the cam still needs a light, try the solar-powered
flood, but don't get my hopes up capacity-wise.


5) If the combo solar-flood/cam is still not getting it,
call an electrical guy for an estimate - stipulating
I bury the cable per his specs and his job is limited
to terminating said cable at each end.


6) Bury the Cat5e and whatever the electrical guy specs
for the 120v in 2" PVC pipe (or whatever is acceptable
to him) leaving a few pull strings against future bright
ideas from Yours Truly.

Use a DitchWitch, try for 18" deep and settle for 6"
if necessary (we are on a shale ridge)

If you go to the work of burying Cat5 in conduit, pull a couple of
stranded 12 gauge wires and run 12 v DC for the light. Save the expense
of the electrician.
On the other hand, is 120vac useful in your outbuilding?
Mikek

 

[Neon John]

6) Bury the Cat5e and whatever the electrical guy specs
for the 120v in 2" PVC pipe (or whatever is acceptable
to him) leaving a few pull strings against future bright
ideas from Yours Truly.

Use a DitchWitch, try for 18" deep and settle for 6"
if necessary (we are on a shale ridge)

Yeah, I see several. The material costs are going to be high compared
to alternatives. And there is a huge amount of labor involved even if
you do rent a DitchWitch.

If you run conduit, you must include a pull box about every 50 feet.
Otherwise you won't be able to pull the cable in.

It's against Code and good practice to run signal and power leads in
the same conduit or even next to each other because of the potential
for cross-talk.

You didn't say how far away this shed is but assuming it's less than
about 1000 feet, here's what I'd do. I use 10 gauge type UF (direct
burial) cable for 120 volt power. If it's over 500 feet move up to 8
gauge. This stuff requires no conduit and if you get the type with an
optional UV rating, can be run overhead.

If the shed is not too far away and is direct line of sight (no trees
or other obstacles), I'd consider overhead.

If you want to go underground, rent a slit trencher. Instead of
digging a ditch (which requires filling in - more labor), a slit
trencher has a large vibrating blade extending down into the ground.
It slits and spreads the dirt a couple of inches. The spool of wire
rides on the trencher. A feeder tube feeds the wire into the newly
opened trench. As the machine passes by, the compressed earth swells
back into place, covering the cable and leaving almost no signs on the
surface.

The blade can cut roots and either break or move aside rocks. About
the only thing that will stop it is solid stone and very hard things
like steel pipe. That's a good thing - you don't want to cut your
water or natural gas pipe!

Now you have 120 volts at the shed for your light and a few outlets
which are always handy to have around. For the video, get an
ethernet-enabled camera and route the signal back to your house using
a pair of WiFi nodes set up peer-to-peer. Old, slow WiFi units are a
dime a dozen but still plenty fast enough for this application.

One last thing. Call the local "Call before You Dig" number and have
your property mapped for existing underground utilities. This is a
free service, paid for by the utilities, and relieves you of any
liability if you cut into an un-mapped underground service.

Many areas of the country have implemented "811" as the number to call
for this service. If yours hasn't, go here:

http://www.callbeforeyoudig.org/

to find out the proper number for your area.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Feed by Giganews

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per amdx:

If you go to the work of burying Cat5 in conduit, pull a couple of
stranded 12 gauge wires and run 12 v DC for the light. Save the expense
of the electrician.
On the other hand, is 120vac useful in your outbuilding?

Not really.

If 12v can be run without code considerations, that would seem tb
a no-brainer replacement for 120v.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per PeteCress:
Per Neon John:

Yeah, I see several....

Thanks!

I'm *really* glad I started this thread....

Didn't even know there was such a thing as a slit trencher....

Somebody mentioned 12v outdoor lighting cable - which would work
for me as an alternative to 12ov.

Can that just be run any old way, or are there code
considerations there too?

 

[Pete C.]

Yeah, I see several. The material costs are going to be high compared
to alternatives. And there is a huge amount of labor involved even if
you do rent a DitchWitch.

If it's a fairly straight shot it's not that much work with a ditch
witch. I did 80' in rock hard clay in an afternoon with a small
trencher.

If you run conduit, you must include a pull box about every 50 feet.
Otherwise you won't be able to pull the cable in.

Woa! That is *way* off. You only need pull boxes if you have too much
accumulated bend in the conduit. 500' straight pulls are extremely
common (with $10 cable lube), and the spec for underground electric
service is commonly 650' max and 360deg total bend max.

It's against Code and good practice to run signal and power leads in
the same conduit or even next to each other because of the potential
for cross-talk.

Cross talk really isn't an issue these days, so it's only a safety issue
running power and data (other than fiber) in the same conduit. My
recommendation is two PVC conduits in the same trench, and 3/4" or 1"
conduit will be fine if it's a straight shot to the outbuilding.

You didn't say how far away this shed is but assuming it's less than
about 1000 feet, here's what I'd do. I use 10 gauge type UF (direct
burial) cable for 120 volt power. If it's over 500 feet move up to 8
gauge. This stuff requires no conduit and if you get the type with an
optional UV rating, can be run overhead.

The extra cost of UF cable doesn't give you savings over using PVC
conduit, and if you UF it, you can't pull it out for repair if needed in
the future. I never direct bury anything, PVC conduit is too
inexpensive.

If the shed is not too far away and is direct line of sight (no trees
or other obstacles), I'd consider overhead.

Overhead is unsightly, UV bombarded (use the correct wire or it
deteriorates fast), birds crap on it, squirrels chew on it, you hit it
with the ROPS on your tractor, lightning hits it, etc.

If you want to go underground, rent a slit trencher. Instead of
digging a ditch (which requires filling in - more labor),

A ditch witch puts all the fill right beside the trench. Put conduit in
the trench, knock and tamp fill in to about 6" depth, put marker tape in
then knock the rest of the fill back in and tamp down. A bit of grass
seed and you're good to go.

a slit
trencher has a large vibrating blade extending down into the ground.
It slits and spreads the dirt a couple of inches. The spool of wire
rides on the trencher. A feeder tube feeds the wire into the newly
opened trench. As the machine passes by, the compressed earth swells
back into place, covering the cable and leaving almost no signs on the
surface.

Those are good for installing sprinkler tubing, but I really don't like
them for anything electrical.

The blade can cut roots and either break or move aside rocks. About
the only thing that will stop it is solid stone and very hard things
like steel pipe. That's a good thing - you don't want to cut your
water or natural gas pipe!

A ditch witch will chew through pipes if you let it, so pay close
attention when running one.

Now you have 120 volts at the shed for your light and a few outlets
which are always handy to have around. For the video, get an
ethernet-enabled camera and route the signal back to your house using
a pair of WiFi nodes set up peer-to-peer. Old, slow WiFi units are a
dime a dozen but still plenty fast enough for this application.

120V power in the shed can be nice, but may not really be worth the cost
if the shed isn't used much. I've done plenty of work at remote sheds
just bringing along a little EU2000 to run tools.

One last thing. Call the local "Call before You Dig" number and have
your property mapped for existing underground utilities. This is a
free service, paid for by the utilities, and relieves you of any
liability if you cut into an un-mapped underground service.

Many areas of the country have implemented "811" as the number to call
for this service. If yours hasn't, go here:

http://www.callbeforeyoudig.org/

to find out the proper number for your area.

Absolutely. Also know what utilities are *not* covered by your CBYD
number, around here they do power, phone and cable, but they do not do
water or sewer (no gas around here).

 

[Tom P]

Thanks John.
Thanks Winston.
Thanks Gordon.
Thanks Pete

In light of the abovementioned wisdom, here's my plan:
----------------------------------------------------------
1) Run Cat5e to the shed and just leave it laying on the
ground pending proof-of-concept.


2) Use a POE-compliant IE camera or power the camera with
a POE splitter.


3) If things work out with just the cam, get some of that
Cat5e with the goop inside that's meant for burial
and bury it any way I can.


4) If the cam still needs a light, try the solar-powered
flood, but don't get my hopes up capacity-wise.


5) If the combo solar-flood/cam is still not getting it,
call an electrical guy for an estimate - stipulating
I bury the cable per his specs and his job is limited
to terminating said cable at each end.


6) Bury the Cat5e and whatever the electrical guy specs
for the 120v in 2" PVC pipe (or whatever is acceptable
to him) leaving a few pull strings against future bright
ideas from Yours Truly.

Use a DitchWitch, try for 18" deep and settle for 6"
if necessary (we are on a shale ridge)

Bear in mind Cat 5e is limited to 100m

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Pete C.:

Those are good for installing sprinkler tubing, but I really don't like
them for anything electrical.

Howcome?

 

[Pete C.]

Per Pete C.:

Howcome?

Repairability, future additions, etc. If a wire becomes damaged and
needs to be repaired, you need to add another circuit, etc. it is a
piece of cake with conduit, but with direct burial it's an entire new
project. Small PVC conduit is like $0.15/ft, it's too cheap to justify
not using.

 

[Vaughn]

If you do go with this suggestion, be aware that many landscape lighting
transformers are 12V AC, so it would need rectification for DC requirements.

I probably should have been clearer. Above I said "Connect cable to a
12 volt DC power supply." It may have been better to say: "Connect
cable to a 12 volt DC power supply rather than to a landscape lighting
transformer."

Vaughn

 

[Jim Wilkins]

...

I probably should have been clearer. Above I said "Connect cable to a 12
volt DC power supply." It may have been better to say: "Connect cable to
a 12 volt DC power supply rather than to a landscape lighting
transformer."

Vaughn

How about running 24VAC from a control transformer through the long wire and
converting to 12V at the destination?
http://www.altex.com/24VAC-to-12VDC...ew-Terminals-500mA-max-PIAD-AC24-P143407.aspx

You gain better voltage regulation and more watts down the wire, but the
equipment is a little harder to find and set up.

jsw