Lost Electricity

[Elmo]

CJT said (on or about) 01/19/2008 19:40:

I think you mean higher rather than lower. Degree days are measured as
delta from a base temperature.

You mean Heating Degree Days -- Cooling Degree Days are calculated in
the reverse. Of course if Steve is cooling things in Iowa during
December and January then there really is a warming problem. Of
course all the hot-air from the political types in Nov-Dec could have
created a need for cooling. But I digress....

 

[Steve IA]

Steve,


No, the billing cycle may have been 31 days but I thought you said you
had a power outage for 6 days. that means that you used 682/25 days=27.3
kwh/day. But if you used 22 kwh/day ( I don't follow this) then your use
seems to be quite normal for this time of year

If we had used for 31 days instead of 25 it would have been 22 kwh/day.
right.
I agree that the real average for dec 07 is 27.3 kwh/day which is way
more than we've ever used before for no apparent reason.

I'm not sure why you are using the numbers for Dec 07 in computing your
average since you believe these numbers are wrong.

The numbers are what the meter reader says (or guessed) I have not other
numbers and January usage is in line with the end of december reading.

Excluding the 07 figures

I get an average or 647 kwh for December.
Where I live the actual billing cycle can fluctuate by a day or two, so
I'm uncertain if it is reasonable to average these numbers together and I
would not calculate the kwh/day without knowing how many days there are in
the billing cycle
27.3 kwh/day is probably a new high for you but it does not seem to be a
huge increase. Could be a lot of Christmas lights, a few visitors, really
cold weather, et c.

Dave M.

Read the other responses again. No lights. no entertaining, no extra
dirty clothes. I may be thick as a brick on this, but it doesn't add up.
Thanks
\
Steve

 

[Steve IA]

And consider the fact that furnace fans can be a big user of power
(during the period when the power WAS on).

1/3 hp (246 watts) furnace fan which only runs briefly due to the wood
burner supplying most of our heat.

thanks for the input

Steve

 

[Steve IA]

That shouldn't change the amount of total clothes washed in December.
Clothes pilling up at my house would actually make the electric bill
less. That shirt wasn't as dirty as I thought it was.

Pretty much how it works.

Steve

 

[Tom Horne]

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

A direct short is what we electricians call a bolted fault. If a
complete short were to exist the breaker should open. What brand of
breaker are we talking about?

An extension cord connection exposed to wetting can use a lot of
electricity without tripping the circuit breaker. Anything less then
ten percent over current can continue for a very long time.

 

[[email protected]]

Every electric bill I have ever gotten clearly states if it's an
estimate or actual reading. My company places a code in front of the
amount. I think mine uses EST as estimate and ACT as actual.

By chance, when the main wires fell, I assume you were still connected
to the transformer (in other words the primary wires fell). Could
someone have connected a generator to one of the houses connected to
the transformer, which backfed to other houses?

 

[Steve IA]

Every electric bill I have ever gotten clearly states if it's an
estimate or actual reading. My company places a code in front of the
amount. I think mine uses EST as estimate and ACT as actual.

By chance, when the main wires fell, I assume you were still connected
to the transformer (in other words the primary wires fell). Could
someone have connected a generator to one of the houses connected to
the transformer, which backfed to other houses?

We happen to be on a forked dead end of the power line. The wires broke
with 4 houses connected to each other via the lines, but not to outside
power. Our transformer is on the pole behind the house and lines are on
the pole and underground from the xformer to the house.
AFAIK all 4 houses had generators, but I don't know how the other 3 were
hooked up. Ours didn't go near the circuit box or meter.
If someone did connect to the lines which energized to backfeed to our
house wouldn't our house power have been restored by their generator? I
don't understand how a backfeed could affect our meter without providing
power.
Thanks for you thoughts.

Steve
southiowa

 

[Steve IA]

Neon John wrote:
..

The Kill-A-Watt is probably the least expensive tool with adequate accuracy there is
for measuring actual consumption. It can be used to measure branch circuits and is
what I used before I bought my clamp-on wattmeter.

The procedure involves a Jesus cord (male convenience plug on one end of the cord and
alligator clips on the other.

Plug the KAW into an outlet or extension cord. Remove the breaker panel cover. Flip
the breaker of the branch of interest off. Connect the black alligator clip of the
Jesus cord to the breaker output screw. (optional) clip the white alligator clip to
the neutral bus. Plug the Jesus cord into the KAW. The branch is now powered
through the KAW and the KAW displays the vital info.

This does not work for 240 volt branches, of course. You'd need a 240 volt KAW or
better, the clamp-on wattmeter.

Thanks for the detailed instructions on this.



--
Steve
southiowa

weltschmerz
Pronunciation: 'velt-"shmerts
Function: noun

: mental depression or apathy caused by comparison of the actual state
of the world with an ideal state

 

[[email protected]]

We happen to be on a forked dead end of the power line. The wires broke
with 4 houses connected to each other via the lines, but not to outside
power. Our transformer is on the pole behind the house and lines are on
the pole and underground from the xformer to the house.
AFAIK all 4 houses had generators, but I don't know how the other 3 were
hooked up. Ours didn't go near the circuit box or meter.
If someone did connect to the lines which energized to backfeed to our
house wouldn't our house power have been restored by their generator? I
don't understand how a backfeed could affect our meter without providing
power.
Thanks for you thoughts.

Steve
southiowa

OK, in reviewing the thread and responses, you appear to have a
mystery. Part of solving it to your satisfaction involves getting
more information.

First, you seem to have four houses in the affected group. I am
assuming that they don't share a common transformer? Can you get
further info on usage at the other three houses, such as actual
previous month and previous year usage? That would confirm or not if
you were the only one really affected.

Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

Third, where is your meter in relation to your house and the
underground lines? If you have a conduit underground from your meter
to your house, is there any possibility that the wire in that conduit
was nicked in installation or spliced, and water entered the conduit
during the storm? If so, until the water contacting the exposed wires
was heated enough by the resistance to evaporate away, there could
have been a short. Once it was evaporated, usage would go back to
normal.

Fourth, did you notice light bulbs burning out when the power was
restored, toast in a toaster oven cooking faster than normal, etc.?
If the voltage was high enough to crate usage issues, this should have
been an obvious tip-off. Can you report actual voltages from both
legs of the main breaker panel?

Fifth: "During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently
during the daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few
lights ." Did you plug the generator into a wall socket, or run
extension cords, or is it permanently attached through a transfer
switch? It shouldn't make a spit worth of difference, but in the
interest of getting as much information as possible, I'm curious.

Sixth: You mention that there were originally two leads to power your
area and now there is one, which means that there were linesmen
working on the line. I'll leave it to John and others to determine if
there is any way that an incorrect connection, or wrong transformer
tap connection, or anything else could have done something like double
or quintuple the voltage coming to the meter for an hour or two or
otherwise upset the meter. I can't think of any way offhand, but I
don't have the expertise to say if it is or isn't possible.

 

[Elmo]

Steve IA said (on or about) 01/19/2008 10:40:

xposted: alt.energy.homepower,alt.home.repair.misc.rural

Our average electricity usage for the last 6 years for December is 653 kwh
with a range of 120. December 07 our usage was 682 kwh. This would not have
been unusual except for the fact that, due to an ice storm, we had NO
electricity for 6.5 days. Billing cycle per the bill was 31 days. I was
expecting a bill 20% lower than the average bill and was dismayed when it
was actually higher. So far this month of January, we are using at the
about average rate (22kwh/day) as we did in December, the only odd thing is
that we had NO power of nearly a week in December. I've spoken with a few
neighbors who also lost power and 'come to think of it' their bill went up
or didn't go down as much as they would have expected for a 20-25% time of
no usage. I ask the REC and they said we 'just used more'. They also tried
to blame 'recovery usage'. I'm not buying it. They claim they didn't
estimate the bill and when I received the bill I immediately checked and the
meter reading seemed in line with normal. I'm talking KWH her not $$ which
can be affected by rate changes, surcharge and taxes etc.

Facts:
During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently during the
daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few lights .
We relied 100% on wood heat, never falling below 60F.
For the entire billing period we did nothing that we can think of unusual
that would increase the consumption over the previous December. No extra
Xmas lights, no 'recovery' usage after power restoration other than 1
refrigerator .
Normal is LP furnace supplemented by high efficiency wood fireplace.
Gas water heater and stove.
Elec clothes dryer.
1 powered outbuilding.
We live ¼ mile away from nearest neighbor so no chance of somebody running
an extension cord and stealing from us.

After receiving the bill, I shut the power off below the meter and it quit
turning. We've done some other testing by turning off house circuit breakers
and watching the meter but have isolated nothing unusual yet. With all house
breakers off the meter stops. I have purchase a Kill-a -Watt and have begun
looking for the energy thief. I've found nothing yet, although the KAW is
fun and interesting.

Where would the electricity go?
When reconnecting the lines, can a 'surge' spin the meter forward?
Previously we had 2 lines coming into our neighborhood, both lines fell but
only 1 was reconnected to restore power. Can this have any bearing?
What am I missing?
What other testing can I do?

Your thoughts and comments appreciated.

Steve IA

I recall a Firesign Theatre album (I Think We're All Bozos on This
Bus) which mentioned a government agency -- The Lost Electricity
Reclamation Bureau (a division of the Department of Redundancy
Department). You should file a claim with them.

 

[Steve IA]

OK, in reviewing the thread and responses, you appear to have a
mystery. Part of solving it to your satisfaction involves getting
more information.

First, you seem to have four houses in the affected group. I am
assuming that they don't share a common transformer? Can you get
further info on usage at the other three houses, such as actual
previous month and previous year usage? That would confirm or not if
you were the only one really affected.

No, we each have our own xformer. I've only spoken to 1 and he didn't
have (and I doubt many non-anal people have) records as good as mine.

Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

That's an interesting thought. 1/4 mile the other direction is a string
of houses on a seperate dead end line that NEVER lost power. (da bums)
I'll see If I can get info from them.

Third, where is your meter in relation to your house and the
underground lines? If you have a conduit underground from your meter
to your house, is there any possibility that the wire in that conduit
was nicked in installation or spliced, and water entered the conduit
during the storm? If so, until the water contacting the exposed wires
was heated enough by the resistance to evaporate away, there could
have been a short. Once it was evaporated, usage would go back to
normal.

The meter is on a pole 30 from the back door. Overhead wires into the
xformer and underground to the house. I have no reason to believe there
would be moisture in there all of a sudden.

Fourth, did you notice light bulbs burning out when the power was
restored, toast in a toaster oven cooking faster than normal, etc.?
If the voltage was high enough to crate usage issues, this should have
been an obvious tip-off. Can you report actual voltages from both
legs of the main breaker panel?

No unusual bulb burn or quick toast. ~120 vac both sides

Fifth: "During the ice storm we used a gas generator intermittently
during the daylight to power the freezer, tv, occasional PC and a few
lights ." Did you plug the generator into a wall socket, or run
extension cords, or is it permanently attached through a transfer
switch? It shouldn't make a spit worth of difference, but in the
interest of getting as much information as possible, I'm curious.

Extension cords.

Sixth: You mention that there were originally two leads to power your
area and now there is one, which means that there were linesmen
working on the line. I'll leave it to John and others to determine if
there is any way that an incorrect connection, or wrong transformer
tap connection, or anything else could have done something like double
or quintuple the voltage coming to the meter for an hour or two or
otherwise upset the meter. I can't think of any way offhand, but I
don't have the expertise to say if it is or isn't possible.

There were 2 lines prior to the storm. Upon restoration there was and
still is only 1 line feeding us.

Good questions all. thanks.

Steve
southiowa

 

[Steve IA]

I recall a Firesign Theatre album (I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus)
which mentioned a government agency -- The Lost Electricity Reclamation
Bureau (a division of the Department of Redundancy Department). You
should file a claim with them.

I get strange looks when I say "We're all Bozos on this bus". Glad to
see I'm not alone.

Steve

--
"But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on.
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on."

-Pete Seeger

 

[Steve IA]

Second, can you get usage from a control group in your area? Homes
that _weren't_ affected by the outage, but were in the same weather
situation? That would allow you to put to rest the arguments about
different use because of more degree days.

I just talked to 2 neighbors who didn't lose power. They saw no great
rise in there bill. Just that Dec was a little higher than Nov. which,
according to my records is pretty normal.
The REC will have the heating degree data when I talk to them tomorrow.

Steve

 

[[email protected]]

Can two extension cords, plugged together and covered with ice and snow
cause a direct short without breaking the circuit breaker?

Thanks
Steve

I'm a farmer and every winter I have these livestock tank heaters
connected by extension cords. I often plug 2 cords together. This
year we had a bad ice storm come early. I normally try to lift the
cords out and on top of the snow, and also usually tape a plastic bag
around the plugs. This year bad weather came early and the ice/slush
froze and all cords are buried. Where they plug together, I recently
found holes melted in the snow. Obviously there is some leakage.
Yet, these are all plugged into GFI outlets. I highly doubt this
would amount to much loss though.

By the way, I learned 2 things.
#1. DO NOT try to chop a cord buried under snow/ice with a shovel. I
thought I was far enough away from the cord with the shovel before
cutting one of the cords in half.

#2 The right way to do this job is on a warmer day, using a garden
hose to melt thru the ice (with cords unplugged of course).

Oh well, I needed a few shorter cords anyhow..... The chopped one is
now two shorter cords, after buying a male and a female plug !!!!


BBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRR BBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
BBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[[email protected]]

What you are seeing with the plugs is probably just a loose or bad
connection. It may not even be worth worring about. If it was much loss
to the ground , the GFI would trip. It only takes a few miliamps of leakage
to trip the GFI. Not enough to be noticiable on the electric bill, Maybe
a dime a month.

I agree, and I am not really worrying about it. The only reason I
wanted to move the one cord was because in between the most severe
weather I added another closer outlet on the outside of the barn wall,
thus cutting the cord distance from 70ft. to 25ft. It was just a
matter of tapping off an indoor GFI on the inside of that wall and
putting an outdoor box opposite it.

What you said is mostly just that there is always a little liquid
going to get between any plug that is not covered or sealed. I swear
that cords tend to separate themselves too. I make them tight, but
there seems to always be a 1/32 inch gap later on. I tend to think
condensation expands them apart.

I did manage to cover a few of them by wrapping them with a plastic
bag. Not perfect but it all helps. As far as I recall, all but one
are wrapped now. The bad weather got us so fast this tear I never got
things put together as well as I wanted. I just cope with it and hope
spring comes soon. I hate winter.

Take care

 

[[email protected]]

No, we each have our own xformer. I've only spoken to 1 and he didn't
have (and I doubt many non-anal people have) records as good as mine.

That's an interesting thought. 1/4 mile the other direction is a string
of houses on a seperate dead end line that NEVER lost power. (da bums)
I'll see If I can get info from them.

The meter is on a pole 30 from the back door. Overhead wires into the
xformer and underground to the house. I have no reason to believe there
would be moisture in there all of a sudden.

No unusual bulb burn or quick toast. ~120 vac both sides

Extension cords.

There were 2 lines prior to the storm. Upon restoration there was and
still is only 1 line feeding us.

Good questions all. thanks.

Steve
southiowa

I dont understand the 2 wire one wire thing. You got to have two
wires to complete any circuit. One furnishes the hot voltage, the
other is the neurtal/ground. I hope they are not relying on ground
rods to supply the ground. -OR- is this now a twisted cable (triplex)
(or would it be called duplex?)
I dont understand this....

With all the questions and answers, I do not recall. Did YOU read the
meter? Maybe the power company is just screwing you. The problem is
not electrical at all, it's accounting in the billing office........ ?

 

[Steve IA]

I dont understand the 2 wire one wire thing. You got to have two
wires to complete any circuit. One furnishes the hot voltage, the
other is the neurtal/ground. I hope they are not relying on ground
rods to supply the ground. -OR- is this now a twisted cable (triplex)
(or would it be called duplex?)
I dont understand this....

That's a possibility. I'll ask the REC about this.

With all the questions and answers, I do not recall. Did YOU read the
meter? Maybe the power company is just screwing you. The problem is
not electrical at all, it's accounting in the billing office........ ?

I read the meter immediately after getting the bill and the usage from
the bill reading date until the day I read the meter has been in line
with normal 6 year average usage. (21 kwh/day)

 

[Don Klipstein]

Was the cord coiled up making an electro magnetic heater?

I don't see coiled extension cords making electromagnetic heaters. The
current through the two current-carrying conductors goes in opposite
directions so their magnetic fields cancel each other out pretty well.
The inductance will be negligible. EMF across this inductance would be
millivolts. Multiply that EMF by the cord current, and any power in any
induced currents has to be a fraction of that.

I'd be suspect of the cord setup as then can generate a lot of heat. Years
ago at work had one start to smoke plugged to a truck block heater. Where
the cord was coiled, it go damned hot and that heat translates to energy
use.

Coiling the cord made the heat being dissipated in the cord conductors
more confined. Extension cords can overheat, especially if coiled,
bunched up, or placed under carpets. Beware of the current rating and the
wire size - some extension cords have thinner conductors and lower current
ratings than others that have similar appearance. For example, I have
seen some very industrial-looking extension cords with 16 AWG conductors.

One more thing - I have noticed that extension cords with 16 AWG
conductors tend to have a current rating of 13 amps, while 14 AWG tends to
be rated 15 amps and 12 AWG tends to be rated 20 amps. It appears to me
that 16 AWG cords have a less conservative rating.

Another thing to watch for with electrical cords in general: Every so
often, check to see if the ends heat up. The ends are where most metal
fatigue damage to the strands of wire occurs - usually within 4 inches of
the ends. If the ends heat up, discard the cords or cut the end few
inches off and replace the plugs/connectors.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

 

[Don Klipstein]

Yep. The breaker won't trip unless the current exceeds the breaker's rated
capacity. A continuous 1A leak won't even come close to tripping a 15A
breaker, but costs you 1A * 120V * 24 hrs = almost 3 kwh per day.

A 1 amp leak is unusual - and serious. That is 120 watts. If there is
an actual 1 amp leak, most of that 120 watts of heat will probably be
being generated in a small localized area - maybe carbonizing or burning
up insulation somewhere.

A 1 amp leak through water will almost certainly cause some serious
electrolytic corrosion.

If you find such an animal as a 1 amp leak, find where it is occurring,
and repair it before you have a fire. I expect there to be damage and
maybe smoke.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

 

[Don Klipstein]

What you are seeing with the plugs is probably just a loose or bad
connection. It may not even be worth worring about. If it was much
loss to the ground , the GFI would trip. It only takes a few miliamps of
leakage to trip the GFI. Not enough to be noticiable on the electric
bill, Maybe a dime a month.

Heating at plugs is usually from partial breakage of the conductors due
to metal fatigue. One common cause is pulling on the cable rather than
the plug to unplug them. Also, pulling on cords to move them while they
are plugged to others, to the extent as to move the connected cords, may
cause this.

Plugs warming up can be a fire hazard. See if they warm up
significantly, or there is only negligible heating that may be a normal
amount from contact resistance. If plugs/sockets or wire within a couple
inches of the them gets noticeably warm, or warmer than the cable more
than a few inches from the ends, then it is good to cut off the ends (and
a few inches of cable) and replace the plugs/sockets. (Or replace the
whole cord.)

A few milliamps leakage from hot to ground and several milliamps more
from hot to neutral (which is closer than ground) can ammount to a good
watt - and I see that sometimes melting snow in a localized area over a
day. However, I think warm plugs/sockets are more likely to warm up from
extra resistance from contact resistance, cheap connection of wires to
plugs/sockets, or wires with some strands broken at the plugs/sockets due
to metal fatigue.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])