Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Looking for serious opinions.

A

ABLE_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi all,

I know "opinions" here are not hard to find, that is why I thought I should
ask.

With out going into a lot of detail and naming names. Who or how should I
handle the following situation???

I had installed a total of 18 "devices" on a system about 3 years ago. Come
to find out that a total of 11 out of these 18 are with manufactured defects
that will render the device non-functional. After contacting the
manufacture and explaining the defect and sending pictures, they have agreed
that there is a problem. They have requested that I would ship the
defective devices back to them for further investigation. They have also
agreed to a credit to me thru my distributor by supplying me with 18
compatitable devices of another manufacturer since non were in stock at this
time.

My plan is to take more pictures and send a letter to the manufacturer
concerning the defect. My concern is that once I send them back, I and
other dealers (you) will never hear a thing about this. The indication is
that they have no knowledge of this ever happening before with there
product.

I am asking here to get some input as to how product recalls are initiated
or implemented so that this does not get swept under the carpet.

And as I said above I will not divulge any names or product models at this
time. This is just a fact finding mission that I am on at this time.

Thanks in advance for your responsible comments.

Les
 
C

coord

Jan 1, 1970
0
My suggestion....contact the CPSC....

http://www.cpsc.gov/about/contact.html

I had occasion to do exactly what you are faced with a few years ago and they even bought the
items from me so that they could do their own testing....and there was ultimately a "recall" of
the item.
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
ABLE_1 said:
Hi all,

I know "opinions" here are not hard to find, that is why I thought I should
ask.

With out going into a lot of detail and naming names. Who or how should I
handle the following situation???

I had installed a total of 18 "devices" on a system about 3 years ago. Come
to find out that a total of 11 out of these 18 are with manufactured defects
that will render the device non-functional. After contacting the
manufacture and explaining the defect and sending pictures, they have agreed
that there is a problem. They have requested that I would ship the
defective devices back to them for further investigation. They have also
agreed to a credit to me thru my distributor by supplying me with 18
compatitable devices of another manufacturer since non were in stock at this
time.

My plan is to take more pictures and send a letter to the manufacturer
concerning the defect. My concern is that once I send them back, I and
other dealers (you) will never hear a thing about this. The indication is
that they have no knowledge of this ever happening before with there
product.

I am asking here to get some input as to how product recalls are initiated
or implemented so that this does not get swept under the carpet.

And as I said above I will not divulge any names or product models at this
time. This is just a fact finding mission that I am on at this time.

Thanks in advance for your responsible comments.

Les



Sort of puts a whole new spin on performing a "weekly test" (as most
manufacturers suggest) of your alarm system, doesn't it?? I'd suggest
everyone here emphasize doing this in your next customer newsletter and
(at the very least) include instructions on how to test the different
"points" on the alarm with your next invoice.
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
My feeling is that if you have 11 out of 18 on the same job, regardless of
what they have told you, they have heard about it elsewhere. If it has been
three years, they have also probably fixed the problem. I had a simular
problem but the company put an expiration date on the recall. My problems
didn't show up until well after the recall expiration date. Even though they
acknowledged the problem and had a recall, they say the problem is now mine.
Well....no it isn't. I've since changed product and distributor as well. The
sales rep changed companys and he still isn't welcome in my door. The
problem is, "where are these recalls posted?" And the bigger problem is, who
is absorbing the costs due to the manufactures defects?
If they had to, their quality control might be tighter and we and our
customers would not be their practice field.
 
J

Jim

Jan 1, 1970
0
ABLE_1 said:
Hi all,

I know "opinions" here are not hard to find, that is why I thought I should
ask.

With out going into a lot of detail and naming names. Who or how should I
handle the following situation???

I had installed a total of 18 "devices" on a system about 3 years ago. Come
to find out that a total of 11 out of these 18 are with manufactured defects
that will render the device non-functional. After contacting the
manufacture and explaining the defect and sending pictures, they have agreed
that there is a problem. They have requested that I would ship the
defective devices back to them for further investigation. They have also
agreed to a credit to me thru my distributor by supplying me with 18
compatitable devices of another manufacturer since non were in stock at this
time.

My plan is to take more pictures and send a letter to the manufacturer
concerning the defect. My concern is that once I send them back, I and
other dealers (you) will never hear a thing about this. The indication is
that they have no knowledge of this ever happening before with there
product.

I am asking here to get some input as to how product recalls are initiated
or implemented so that this does not get swept under the carpet.

And as I said above I will not divulge any names or product models at this
time. This is just a fact finding mission that I am on at this time.

Thanks in advance for your responsible comments.

Les

First thing you have to do is get it or put it in writing and start
communicating with the mfg with certified - return receipt letters.
Anything said in a conversation can (and will) be denied. Since you've
already spoken to them, you can write them a letter describing, in
detail your findings and experiences with the equipment. Then go on to
describe how you contacted them and what they said, what you said. End
the correspondence with ..... I will await your corroboation of the
events, so far, as outlined in this letter. I will expect a reply
within XX days. Describe every product in detail and be as specific
with dates and places and events, as you can.
Include as many names as you can, of other people you've spoken with
also. Don't forget to include the names of people at distributors and
sales reps. Having third party substanciation of your efforts is always
good.

If they don't respond appropriately, report it to whichever agency or
as many agencies as you care to. Which, even if you do get a
posititive response, depending upon the ultimate out come, you should
probably do anyway. If you're not satisfied with their response,
depending on how strongly you feel principled about it, letters to
distributors, their competitors and in fourms like these have some
effect.

Recalls are started by one person followed by how many others make
complaints.
 
N

Nomen Nescio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Worthy said:
I had a simular
problem but the company put an expiration date on the recall. My problems
didn't show up until well after the recall expiration date. Even though they
acknowledged the problem and had a recall, they say the problem is now mine.
Well....no it isn't. I've since changed product and distributor as well.

Bob, this is what manufacturer's warranties are all about. If they
guarantee a product for two years, and people start having problems at two
years and six months, the manufacturer is absolutely within its rights to
say, "Too bad, that's life." If they had wanted to give a three year
warranty, they would have done so.

Of course, a smart manufacturer may choose to extend the warranty on a
product that is known to have problems, in order to avoid alienating
customers. But they're under no obligation to do so, much less extend the
warranty indefinitely.

To get back to the original poster's question, how to prove the products
were defective once you've sent them back:

1. Consider keeping one of the items as insurance, if they're all
exhibiting the same defect. You may be able to send it in later, after
they make good on the other 17, by saying you just found another one. If
not, consider the cost as the price you paid for insurance.

2. Before you send anything back, conduct tests and record your results in
a lab notebook with bound, nonremovable pages. Date and sign each entry,
stating what you did and what the results were. If possible, have someone
else witness your experiments. This is one way people document inventions
before filing patent applications (except for the witness part). Identify
the products you test by lot number, serial number, or whatever. If the
defects are visible, take pictures.

3. As Jim said, send lots of letters, certified, and make sure your
shipments of defective products have tracking and proof of delivery. Send
a letter saying something like, "I wanted to thank you for your offer to
replace these items with a competitor's products at no charge. It's great
to see a manufacturer stand behind its products like that. I'll be
shipping them back to you in about ten days. Please call me if you have
any special shipping instructions, or if there's anything else I need to
do." Document everything.

- badenov
 
A

ABLE_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks to all for the suggestions. I plan to use some this and some of
that.

All very helpful.

Thanks again.

Les
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Without giving name/model number...what kind of devices are they anyway?
Transmitters? Kpds?


| Thanks to all for the suggestions. I plan to use some this and some of
| that.
|
| All very helpful.
|
| Thanks again.
|
| Les
|
|
|
 
A

Allan Waghalter

Jan 1, 1970
0
With this major of a problem, I think you should post full details. Others
may have some of this equipment in the field and would want to check on it.
 
D

Doug L

Jan 1, 1970
0
Door Strikes? or something mechanical since he's taken pictures of the
defect..

Doug
 
A

ABLE_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry Guys,

First I want to give the mfg. a chance to do right on this and second I am
not going to stick my liability neck out just yet. Suffice it to say that
we have ALL installed them and I am sure that most are just fine.

Please do not turn this into a 3 ring circus with comments, guesses, and
suppositions. When the time is right I will post all details. Just sit
back and relax and have a beer or two.

Les
 
R

Robo

Jan 1, 1970
0
was it burg or fire? or access? cctv? cmon, one little hint.
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
boy, yer no fun.
smokeys?



| Sorry Guys,
|
| First I want to give the mfg. a chance to do right on this and second I am
| not going to stick my liability neck out just yet. Suffice it to say that
| we have ALL installed them and I am sure that most are just fine.
|
| Please do not turn this into a 3 ring circus with comments, guesses, and
| suppositions. When the time is right I will post all details. Just sit
| back and relax and have a beer or two.
|
| Les
|
|
|
| > Door Strikes? or something mechanical since he's taken pictures of the
| > defect..
| >
| > Doug
| > --
| >
| > | >> Without giving name/model number...what kind of devices are they
anyway?
| >> Transmitters? Kpds?
| >>
| >>
| >> | >> | Thanks to all for the suggestions. I plan to use some this and some
of
| >> | that.
| >> |
| >> | All very helpful.
| >> |
| >> | Thanks again.
| >> |
| >> | Les
| >> |
| >> |
| >> |
| >>
| >>
| >
| >
|
|
 
P

Petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
ABLE_1 said:
Sorry Guys,

First I want to give the mfg. a chance to do right on this and second I am
not going to stick my liability neck out just yet. Suffice it to say that
we have ALL installed them and I am sure that most are just fine.

Please do not turn this into a 3 ring circus with comments, guesses, and
suppositions. When the time is right I will post all details. Just sit
back and relax and have a beer or two.

Ok I'll take 2 Guinness,just a tad colder then room temp,thanks..
 
P

Petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ok I'll take 2 Guinness,just a tad colder then room temp,thanks..


What? are you cutting back?

Nope, When someone tell me to relax and take a few beer,well i do it!,and
send the bill to him of course!
 
E

Everywhere Man

Jan 1, 1970
0
Who gives a shit how many beers you drink? Frank says you're a drunk
like all other Frenchies. I just wanna know how the vacation was and if
you caught any fish?
 
P

Petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ho!!!

LOL Sorry man,look like the language barrier did some damage here....(I ran
in it like hell!)

The fishing been good even if it was damn too hot,the river were still cold
enough to make the fish react to my lure..
the best part was that there were almost no mosquito or fly around,so I knew
what not to put as lure...

the bombardier 4 wheel bike I had broke on me,got to walk on a road build by
lumber company for around 30 kilometer before I found some living soul that
could help me,but that was fun,there is a lot of activity at night in that
region! Grin ;-)

I left my catch at my sister place she is smoking it right now,or it was
yesterday,and she will drop it here this week end,cant wait to have it...

I mainly got some "truite" and a few wall eyes...no trophy worth catch,but
still I am happy...

Now I am going back at work on Monday but they already sent me a few job on
the fax,I didn't even looked at it,that would hurt my eyes that's for sure!


Who gives a shit how many beers you drink? Frank says you're a drunk
like all other Frenchies. I just wanna know how the vacation was and if
you caught any fish?
 
A

ABLE_1

Jan 1, 1970
0
As promised this is the response to all your questions and guesses.

OK, concerning the below post, I can now fill you all in on the details.

To who mentioned that the mfg. may have been aware long already, you were
right.

The problem was with some Chemtronics 604 heat detectors concerning the
rivet that holds on the brass terminal strip had broken on 11 out of the 18
that I had installed. The date code was W01-Y04. This was the first week
of 2004 production run.

It seems that the rivet was too small in size and when placed under the
pressure of tightening the wire to the terminal it would break the rivet.
As the installer you would not necessarily see the broken rivet. With the
rivet broken the integrity of the circuit was good but the detectors were
useless.

Just received a letter from Mircom explaining the above and that a Field
Bulletin 04-050-T was issued on August 18, 2004 from OEM
Chemtronics/Kidde-Fenwal, Inc.

It states on the Field Bulletin for ACTION:

"If during scheduled service or a trouble call, check the terminal plates of
EACH detector for rivet security. If a defect is detected on series 600
heat detectors, contact Chemtronics customer service to request replacement
units and obtain a Return Authorization Number (RMA) to return the defective
units."

This Field Bulletin was only sent as an ADVISORY and not as a RECALL.

I guess they didn't think it was such a big deal at the time.

Since Chemtronics was the OEM and I was talking to MIRCOM they did not know
about the problem when I was taking to Tech Support. According to my
letter from Mircom it said that Chemtronics had contacted the CSPC with
regard to the matter with a "No Fault" finding.

I may have been a little excessive in my caution but better safe than sorry.
If you guy can track your installs for Heat Detectors you may want to check
those that were purchased in early 2004. You may have some that will be
absolutely useless to your customers protection.

Which brings up a question. If the Service Bulletin is printed who get it
or how is it disseminated to the masses. The Distributor??? Is it then the
Distributor responsibility to pass it on the dealers. Anyone have any
knowledge on the way it is "supposed" to work??? Just thinking out loud, as
it were, because it didn't seem to work in this case.

I just happened to get lucky and had the customer, while on site during a
very close lightning strike, and the thunder had vibrated the building with
enough force to dislodge the brass plates, which shorted against each other
and caused a fire alarm on the heat detector loop. Who would have
thought???

Mircom will be giving me a credit for the 18 detectors that were replaced
with the Edwards brand detector. Imagine that??? They may no comment as to
my labor cost that I asked about. I had to ask.

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions. Hope you guys don't have
any.

Les
 
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