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"Living with Ed" tv show

L

lp13-30

Jan 1, 1970
0
I watched the show on HGTV Sunday night(I think). It is about Ed Begley
Jr. He and his wife have a nearly self sufficient house in Studio City
Ca. He had a bicycle hooked up to a generator and was pedalling the heck
out of to to run the toaster. He has some kind of electric car--looks
like a small SUV, and according to the ads for the next show, is going
to Jay Leno's to look at his car collection. Check it out. Larry
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
lp13-30 said:
I watched the show on HGTV Sunday night(I think). It is about Ed Begley
Jr. He and his wife have a nearly self sufficient house in Studio City
Ca. He had a bicycle hooked up to a generator and was pedalling the heck
out of to to run the toaster.

How long did it take to make toast? Toasters are the sort of energy hogs
that we don't use in our off-grid home, and bicycle generators don't put
out much power.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
How long did it take to make toast? Toasters are the sort of energy hogs
that we don't use in our off-grid home

Huh? How do you make your toast then?
, and bicycle generators don't put
out much power.

He looks fit, he might be able to do 200W for a while. And no doubt he
has a battery-inverter setup. So all he'd have to do is pedal for
perhaps 6 times as long as the toaster is powered up. It would depend
on whether he takes all the losses into account, or just pedals long
enough to accumulate on a meter the energy consumption of a batch of
toast. Either way, it's probably in the 15 minute ballpark. The show
hasn't appeared on ISO Hunt yet. But if it does, I'm going to have
some solar/wind powered toast while I watch it. :)

BTW, pedal-powering a batch of toast would take approximately a third
less pedaling than powering the idle consumption of a VCR for a day,
and 14 times less than powering a satellite TV receiver for a day
(even if nobody watches either one). So if you label toasters "energy
hogs", then what do you call normal household electronics? Energy
black holes? ;-)

Wayne
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
I practically never make toast. It's just burned bread :)

My wife uses the broiler on the gas stove.
Yeah, I had to bail on that one too; we've got one, but it's only a
two-slicer ;-). We tried the gas-stove top old fashioned toast
"holders", but really, there's no substitute. Toasters are a load of
note, though, so they come into play when sizing the inverter,
especially if the house has microwaves and coffee makers, as all three
are common runners in the morning.

Huh??? Coffee makers can't do as good or efficient a job as a kettle, and I
get by without a microwave (I do realize they're a great invention - I
_couldn't_ get by without the one at work).
I tell ya, though, if you want to try something incredible, cook a good
steak *in* a woodstove.

I only have a gravity-feed oil stove - I just don't think I'd like the taste
of kerosene steak :)

I don't know - how hot do you really need to get those elements? I don't
know if you can just use the direct power or if you absolutely have to use
a battery and inverter (in which case, he has to pedal even longer). If
it's just the radiant heating effect, you could use thinner elements and
get them good and red on low voltage DC.
Yep, me too ;-).

Not me - who's got power for nutbar TV? I have a TV (quite a large one),
but it generally gets used less than 1 hour a week.

I find the numbers suspect. But I don't _have_ idle electrical
consumption - nor a VCR or TV receiver (I offloaded the satellite internet
receiver to the next-door neighbour - we both get a break on the cost of
the connection, and run a WiFi link between the houses).

If they're not on switched circuits, yes. However, it isn't the long-term
use that's a problem. I generate enough power to be able to use a toaster.
I'm not sure I'd want to run the house ventilation, the freezer _and_ a
toaster at the same time, though.
Yep, a matter of low consumption long duration, which requires
consideration when calculating battery bank and generation,

No, they don't. Why on earth would anyone size a PV/Wind system for phantom
loads - turn them off!
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
DJ said:
Obviously not a true Maritimer ;-).

Ow! I've been outed. It's true, I'm a CFA.
Yeah, that'd be a bit much ;-).


Low voltage yes, but low wattage, no. They're usually in the 1000-1500
watt range, so that'd
be some serious amperage... The boy's pedalling a while, especially if
she likes club sandwiches ;-).
Absolutely.

Yep, I don't do alot of phantom load either; powerbars. But I ain't
lucky enough to have a neighbor I can plug into for internet ;-).

It was my second biggest power user for a while (computers being my
business). Then the neighbor needed an Internet connection and was
planning to buy the same system - so we split the cost, now, and she pays
for power, I provide the management skills.
Well, that's a matter of inverter sizing, and to a lesser extent,
battery bank size, though, not generation. And you have a HRV? That's a
big constant draw too, though.

Not an HRV, but about a 60W ventilation system. Runs off DC so that I don't
have to lose power to the inverter. The battery bank is actually bigger
than it should have been. When I eventually have to replace it I'll go
with only half as much. I have an Outback FX2024, so a toaster would work,
but may well trip if the freezer starts. Obviously, the fans don't
actually add to the inverter load ... I wasn't thinking when I wrote
that :)
For as many as possible, absolutely, but more and more, my clients are
running "modern" households, and while they have *minimized* phantom
loads, but still have them to one degree or another.

Yeah, I know... Clients. Can't live with 'em, certainly can't live without
them. Personally, I'm running a "modern" household, but I couldn't even
get my wife to agree to having switched outlets.
Alarm systems,
lights on timers, alarm clocks... Turning the AC power totally off to
the house intermittently isn't always an option any more.

It _is_, but I can certainly understand why it isn't worth selling that to
your customers.
 
S

Steve Cothran

Jan 1, 1970
0
He looks fit, he might be able to do 200W for a while.

So if he could do 200W for 8 hours straight, he could generate 13
cents worth of electricity. (TN Rates)
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
who's got power for nutbar TV? I have a TV (quite a large one),
but it generally gets used less than 1 hour a week.

Then how would you know that the "Living with Ed" show for instance is
"nutbar TV", or that it could be any more nutty than a lot of the
stuff on Usenet?
I find the numbers suspect.

Off the top of my head - 2 minutes at 1200W = 40Wh, 24 hours at 3W =
72Wh, 24 hours at 30W = 720Wh. Now, the bread could start frozen,
adding to the toasting time, or the satellite TV receiver could have a
built in DVR upping its idle current. But the concept will remain the
same - some large loads for a short time can require much less energy
than smaller loads for a long period.
But I don't _have_ idle electrical
consumption - nor a VCR or TV receiver (I offloaded the satellite internet
receiver to the next-door neighbour - we both get a break on the cost of
the connection, and run a WiFi link between the houses).

Nice to be able to offload something onto a neighbor! I was on the
receiving end of one of those requests... a neighbor (about 9 miles
away) with no line of sight to a good phone line, wanted us to share
our radio-linked DSL with him by re-broadcasting. Trouble was,
powering a 24-7 radio pair might have cost us a half kWh or more per
day. Once I told him that at the very least he'd have to pay for some
PV to cover the energy, end of story. He would have choked on the
price of the radio pair and VOIP units anyway.
I generate enough power to be able to use a toaster.
I'm not sure I'd want to run the house ventilation, the freezer _and_ a
toaster at the same time, though.

I tell people that inverter capacity is relatively cheap, and that if
they can afford it, to size for the largest combination of loads
that's reasonable. For example, when I'm about to fire up something in
the shop, I for sure don't want to have to consider if it's compatible
with my wife's power use in the house.
Why on earth would anyone size a PV/Wind system for phantom
loads

That's an easy one, I can think of several reasons. Someone might want
to excise the mindless commercials from their nutbar TV, :) thereby
reducing 60 minute programs to 40, but at the cost of the idle power
consumption of a VCR or DVR. Another might want a microwave-convection
combo. They don't come in mechanical-timer versions, and
electronically controlled models often need massaging with every
re-powering. A user could want their well pump or solar water heating
on timers, and decide that X10 or 110V versions might cost less in
money or inconvenience than battery-powered substitutes. Or someone
who works outdoors might want a cordless phone. Still another might
decide that considering their near-constant power use, that it makes
little sense to use search mode to save a few Whrs, etc., etc. Most
folks think of this stuff as "living a normal lifestyle". Telling them
they can't or shouldn't have it is unnecessarily judgmental, and a
ticket to oblivion for installers. The candles-and-clothesline
approach used to be de rigueur, but times are changing.

Wayne
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
So if he could do 200W for 8 hours straight, he could generate 13
cents worth of electricity. (TN Rates)

13 cents (1.6kWh at TN rates) is nothing to sneeze at, it's quite
enough to do some useful work. That's about an hour's full time use of
a chop saw and/or small MIG welder, which is enough for about two days
of the usual home workshop metal fabricating. Unfortunately, it's also
about enough to power a screen-saver on a CRT computer-monitor for a
day, which is what it's more likely to be used for when folks can buy
it cheap.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
What a crock, wayne can quote form any number of 60s 70s sitcoms. It's
his favorite pastime. Don't believe it? He has a satellite TV the
receiver is on 24 hours a day. You think anybody would have pay TV for
an hour a day.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
What a crock, wayne can quote from any number of 60s 70s sitcoms. It's
his favorite pastime. Don't believe it? He has a satellite TV the
receiver is on 24 hours a day. You think anybody would have pay TV for
an hour a day.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
He has a satellite TV the
receiver is on 24 hours a day. You think anybody would have pay TV for
an hour a day.

No nitwit, a 4DTV satellite TV receiver needs to be powered up to
receive its daily guide and satellite/channel map updates, and to be
able to supply a recording signal unattended. If it's de-powered, then
when it reboots it has to re-download everything, including its time
signal and recording instructions. I understand that other models of
receivers are similar, and that built-in DVRs have become popular.
Those keep a hard drive spinning 24-7, and might use 40W total. We use
a HTPC for that function, which uses more power when running, but only
needs to be on when recording or watching, a net savings of about
530Wh per day. Whether energy consumed by home theater stuff is wasted
depends on one's point of view. One thing's for sure though, unless
somebody invents a propane-powered satellite receiver, you have no
choice but to do without.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oh, so sorry. I'll just tell my satellite modem to shut down.

Game set match to George.

You really are a born consumer aren't you.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'll just tell my satellite modem to shut down.

Satellite Internet modems are completely different from satellite TV
receivers. That's a basic concept that a good installer needs to know
before recommending power solutions to a customer. Well, any installer
who wants to be successful anyway. But shutting yours down is an
excellent idea. It would make you less of a hypocrite than continuing
to preach Luddite theories via computer and satellite. And it's not
like anyone would miss you.
You really are a born consumer aren't you.

What's the point of pretending that your doing-without is by choice?
Why would you have priced a grid connection if partial solar was your
preference? Do you really expect people to believe that if you'd
gotten that connection, that you'd be using $3 of electricity per
month and hauling tons of propane anyway? Obviously if you'd had the
intelligence and the finances to pull off the life you originally had
in mind, then you'd be using more electricity than you are now.
Certainly more than all the off-gridders you call "born consumers" and
"cheap arsed bastards". So now that you're stuck living a lifestyle
far below what you originally planned, nobody is going to believe that
you wouldn't make substantial upgrades if you really had all those
profitable customers you claimed were lined up to pay for your
services. Neither will anyone accept that chopping wood and dicking
with scabbed-together generators was your life's ambition. Pretending
that it was just telegraphs your embarrassment about not having done
better. Besides, you've commented on the allusion of the "American
dream" a couple of times. Your resentment over not having attained it
comes through as loud as a locomotive horn.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Satellite Internet modems are completely different from satellite TV
receivers. That's a basic concept that a good installer needs to know
before recommending power solutions to a customer. Well, any installer
who wants to be successful anyway. But shutting yours down is an
excellent idea. It would make you less of a hypocrite than continuing
to preach Luddite theories via computer and satellite. And it's not
like anyone would miss you.

No they are exactly the same. They use energy.
What's the point of pretending that your doing-without is by choice?
Why would you have priced a grid connection if partial solar was your
preference? Do you really expect people to believe that if you'd
gotten that connection, that you'd be using $3 of electricity per
month and hauling tons of propane anyway? Obviously if you'd had the
intelligence and the finances to pull off the life you originally had
in mind, then you'd be using more electricity than you are now.
Certainly more than all the off-gridders you call "born consumers" and
"cheap arsed bastards". So now that you're stuck living a lifestyle
far below what you originally planned, nobody is going to believe that
you wouldn't make substantial upgrades if you really had all those
profitable customers you claimed were lined up to pay for your
services. Neither will anyone accept that chopping wood and dicking
with scabbed-together generators was your life's ambition. Pretending
that it was just telegraphs your embarrassment about not having done
better. Besides, you've commented on the allusion of the "American
dream" a couple of times. Your resentment over not having attained it
comes through as loud as a locomotive horn.

You love putting words in my mouth. Pity you have no idea at all.

I chose my lifestyle and find it to be ideal. I own everything I have
and the bank got no look in at all. Galls you doesn't it.

While you play the stock market as a gambling venue trying to attain
some mythical life style you would like to have, I have it all.

I priced the grid to have a bench mark. No intention of being connected.
I have made substantial upgrades and have reduced my electricity needs
by .2kWh/day. I can make toast three different ways. None of which
involve electricity.

You are a born consumer, you have to have every thing your neighbors
have and more to feel any self worth.

I never said that the customers were profitable, only that I have a
constant trade. My work as a consultant is largely as the last resort
for people who can't get the original designer/installer to to fix their
stuff ups.

Chopping wood is good honest work and a healthy pursuit.

My scabbed together generator for charging out performs any electric
charger.

Ah yes, the great American dream. A chicken in every pot, two cars in
every garage and a Walmart on every corner. Lucky you.


Game set and match to me. Again.

Ya all have a nice day now.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I chose my lifestyle and find it to be ideal.

Please, does your BS know no bounds? Needing to run a generator for
everything over a few hundred Watts is a long way from ideal, and
nobody sensible chooses to be broke.
I own everything I have
and the bank got no look in at all.

Wasting money on interest, and wasting it on fuel achieves pretty much
the same result - an inability to get ahead. I doubt you ever had
sufficient credit, but if you'd borrowed 20 years ago in order to have
a more self-sufficient setup, then the loan would have long since been
paid off, and you wouldn't need to pretend that burning fuel is
"ideal".
I priced the grid to have a bench mark. No intention of being connected.

Oh sure, and that benchmark was useful in what way? Like visiting the
Rolls dealership when en route to buy a used Yugo? The mind boggles.
My work as a consultant is largely as the last resort
for people who can't get the original designer/installer to to fix their
stuff ups.

You've been doing that dreg work for years, posting astonishing
blunders just as long while fishing for chump change, and
transparently spinning it all as something else for the entire time.
But the proof is in the pudding - far from being a successful
consultant, you're needing to start yet another career, and "stuffing
up" that one just as badly as the last. It's hilarious to see you
write about bad installers, when there couldn't be any who've made a
bigger fool of themselves than you've done trying to become an
"editor". And it's doubtful that there could be even a single Chinese
entrepreneur dumb enough to hire a web editing biz that can't afford
$50 a year for its own web site. Of course, whenever it comes time to
talk about those lost prospects, you can always blame *them* for being
"cheap arsed bastards", eh Grorge?
My scabbed together generator for charging out performs any electric
charger.

Baloney. Built-in chargers offer a wealth of features like multi-stage
charging, and auto-start and equalize. Yet you're stuck pretending
that such things don't exist because doing dreg work never gave you
the opportunity to own such hardware, or even try it. The fact is that
inverter-chargers like the Outbacks are generally affordable and
"best" for off-gridders. Only a true Ghinius would try selling the
notion that cobbled-together junk "out performs" hardware that he
knows nothing about.
Ah yes, the great American dream. A chicken in every pot, two cars in
every garage and a Walmart on every corner.

No, that would be good health, financial security, a happy and
comfortable life, etc. If you had any of it, you wouldn't spend so
much time inventing fault with all the folks who've done better than
you.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thank you wayne, I have never seen such a clear cut case of
"Transference" demonstrated in a public forum.

You have very clearly outlined all your fears and anxieties.
Please, does your BS know no bounds? Needing to run a generator for
everything over a few hundred Watts is a long way from ideal, and
nobody sensible chooses to be broke.

You fear not having enough money. The "Transference" is where you try to
project your fear onto me. I choose not to worry about not being rich. I
have been wealthy and poor and will probably be both again.
Wasting money on interest, and wasting it on fuel achieves pretty much
the same result - an inability to get ahead. I doubt you ever had
sufficient credit, but if you'd borrowed 20 years ago in order to have
a more self-sufficient setup, then the loan would have long since been
paid off, and you wouldn't need to pretend that burning fuel is
"ideal".

Again your fear of not having enough is evident. You fear not getting
ahead. It's no good trying to transfer this fear onto me. I don't have
to get ahead. I don't need to own more than I have.
Oh sure, and that benchmark was useful in what way? Like visiting the
Rolls dealership when en route to buy a used Yugo? The mind boggles.

The benchmark told me what I saved over a grid connection. And again
your need to own ever more than you currently have is evident in placing
a rolls over anything else.
You've been doing that dreg work for years, posting astonishing
blunders just as long while fishing for chump change, and
transparently spinning it all as something else for the entire time.
But the proof is in the pudding - far from being a successful
consultant, you're needing to start yet another career, and "stuffing
up" that one just as badly as the last. It's hilarious to see you
write about bad installers, when there couldn't be any who've made a
bigger fool of themselves than you've done trying to become an
"editor". And it's doubtful that there could be even a single Chinese
entrepreneur dumb enough to hire a web editing biz that can't afford
$50 a year for its own web site. Of course, whenever it comes time to
talk about those lost prospects, you can always blame *them* for being
"cheap arsed bastards", eh Grorge?

Ah, now your inherent hate of anybody who shows you up comes to the
fore. The remedy of course is to just admit that you really don't know
any of the numbers for your system. But no, you just attack the only one
who has correctly pointed out your failings. Believe me wayne You will
feel much better if you just face up to your failings.
Baloney. Built-in chargers offer a wealth of features like multi-stage
charging, and auto-start and equalize. Yet you're stuck pretending
that such things don't exist because doing dreg work never gave you
the opportunity to own such hardware, or even try it. The fact is that
inverter-chargers like the Outbacks are generally affordable and
"best" for off-gridders. Only a true Ghinius would try selling the
notion that cobbled-together junk "out performs" hardware that he
knows nothing about.

Here you exhibit your fear of not knowing what you are talking about.
It' no good trying to transfer your fear onto me. This is evident in you
use of "Ghinius" to try and denigrate me. Every time you use such words
you clearly show your fear of being second best.
No, that would be good health, financial security, a happy and
comfortable life, etc. If you had any of it, you wouldn't spend so
much time inventing fault with all the folks who've done better than
you.

Ah, wayne, again your fears about not having enough material possessions
come to the fore. Clearly seen in the terms "financial security", "happy
and comfortable life" Your fears will drive you to attain more and more
wealth and material possessions, but you will never believe yourself to
be wealthy enough or comfortable enough to stop. Your soul will be
devoured by your greed. It is interesting that almost every post you
have ever made has some mention of your material possessions and never
any real numbers to back up your claims.

You really are a sad little man in a very large world beyond your
ability to compete in.

Ya all have a nice day now.
 
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