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Li-ion battery issues...

Discussion in 'Electronic Repair' started by gothika, Jul 31, 2004.

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  1. gothika

    gothika Guest

    I just purchased some Li-ion battery packs from a local department
    store and am having problems charging them to full capacity.
    The batteries only charge to half capacity.(At least according to the
    camcorder.)
    Here are the details.
    Camera: Canon ZR45MC
    Charger:Canon CA560(charges the batteries on camera via the power plug
    on the camera.)
    Batteries: Sakar CB-511, replacements for the Canon BP-511's.
    7.4 volts 1200mah.

    I've left the batteries on charge for just over 14 hours with the same
    results, half charge.

    Do these batteries need a 24hr or longer initial charge cycle?
    (Ones that came with the camera didn't, charged right up in about 4
    hours.)
    I'm thinking not.
    The other possiblity that crossed my mind was that maybe the camera
    metering circuit is off.
    I did take areading off one of the batts with a VOM and got 7.559
    static.(Seems I remember my oems read around 8.1 fully charged/new.)
    Fairly certain the charger/power supply is working fine.(Powers the
    camera just fine. Volt readings on the charge contacts on the battery
    slot read 3.12 to 3.15. Don't know if that's normal.)
    I have been using the camera with a pro-style battery pack instead of
    the oem styles.(Belt pack with cable and adapter module. I don't get
    battery status readings on the camera display with it.)
    It maybe that this has had an adverse effect on the battery display
    functions on the camera?(I've been thinking that MAYBE running the
    camera one cycle with the new batteries might reset the batt. meter.)
    I have done all the usual, cleaning all contacts and such.

    Does anyone have any experience with these cameras or Li-ion battery
    issues?
    Any info is appreciated.
     
  2. Ken Weitzel

    Ken Weitzel Guest


    Hi...

    Can't be of much help other than to encourage you
    to ignore the camera; look at the batteries.

    I think the camera is telling the truth. Given the
    incredibly low internal impedance of those things,
    by the time the open terminal voltage drops from
    8.1 v to 7.5 they're well on their way to discharged.

    Take care.

    Ken
     
  3. gothika

    gothika Guest

    Thanks, that's pretty much what I thought.
    They were on sale as a clearance item.
     
  4. Jerry G.

    Jerry G. Guest

    The batteries may have been too long on the shelf, and are not very good, or
    the camera charger has a fault condition. When these batteries sit for too
    long after manufacture and have not been cycled, they can be internally
    damaged over time.

    If you can have a known good battery to use on the camera, this would be the
    best test. Or, if you have a way to do an evaluation on the camera charger,
    or use another charger to charge the batteries, you would then know where
    the fault is.

    --

    Jerry G.
    ==========================


    I just purchased some Li-ion battery packs from a local department
    store and am having problems charging them to full capacity.
    The batteries only charge to half capacity.(At least according to the
    camcorder.)
    Here are the details.
    Camera: Canon ZR45MC
    Charger:Canon CA560(charges the batteries on camera via the power plug
    on the camera.)
    Batteries: Sakar CB-511, replacements for the Canon BP-511's.
    7.4 volts 1200mah.

    I've left the batteries on charge for just over 14 hours with the same
    results, half charge.

    Do these batteries need a 24hr or longer initial charge cycle?
    (Ones that came with the camera didn't, charged right up in about 4
    hours.)
    I'm thinking not.
    The other possiblity that crossed my mind was that maybe the camera
    metering circuit is off.
    I did take areading off one of the batts with a VOM and got 7.559
    static.(Seems I remember my oems read around 8.1 fully charged/new.)
    Fairly certain the charger/power supply is working fine.(Powers the
    camera just fine. Volt readings on the charge contacts on the battery
    slot read 3.12 to 3.15. Don't know if that's normal.)
    I have been using the camera with a pro-style battery pack instead of
    the oem styles.(Belt pack with cable and adapter module. I don't get
    battery status readings on the camera display with it.)
    It maybe that this has had an adverse effect on the battery display
    functions on the camera?(I've been thinking that MAYBE running the
    camera one cycle with the new batteries might reset the batt. meter.)
    I have done all the usual, cleaning all contacts and such.

    Does anyone have any experience with these cameras or Li-ion battery
    issues?
    Any info is appreciated.
     
  5. gothika

    gothika Guest

    Thanks for the reply.
    I've about decided that it's the batteries that are bad.
    Took them back and swapped some of them for a second try.
    All bad as well.
    They are old.(At least 2 years or so.)
    probably why they're trying to peddle them off at half price.
    Every time I've had problems with Dv camcorder batteries it's almost
    always been the smart chip inside, not the actual batteries.
    Wish there were a way to get these as a replacement part.
    I've lost count of the battery modules I've tossed because of crappy
    electronics.
     

  6. You mentioned only 3.15 volts across the individual cells when
    charging, I think. Isn't that too low? I thought the individual cell
    voltage was a little higher than that when charged, so maybe the
    charger or the regulator/charge electrohnics isn't putting out enough.
    Also, have you tried charging the individual cells manually from a
    separate source, to see if it is the cells or the charger regulstor
    that is bad??

    H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
     
  7. gothika

    gothika Guest


    If I remember I'd said that I was reading 3.15 off the charging
    contacts on the camera.(The charger/power supply unit I have, CA-650,
    plugs into the front of the camera and either provides power to the
    camera or power to the charge circuitry in the battery when the camera
    is off.)
    This was taken with a VOM set to read dc voltage. So it wouldn't be an
    accurate test of the max output during a charge cycle.
    The charger is working as I'd tested it on a friend's camera(ZR-55)
    and it charged his battery just fine.
    I'm not that well versed with how Li-ion's are charged but I'm certain
    that the circuitry in the battery module works in concert with the
    output circuitry in the charger to ramp the rate up or down as needed.
    I'd certainly appreciate a bit of Li-ion charging 101 from anyone if
    they'd spare the time.
    What I've heard is that Li-ion's like to burst if over-charged.
    How would I go about charging them with a standalone charger?
    Would a trickle charger be ok? If so, what voltage and milliamp rate
    would be safe to avoid damaging the batteries?
    I do have a number of old modules that I can open up.(In fact I have
    one that I'd cracked open sitting in a tray on my work table.)
    I could use that one as a test subject. I do know that the batteries
    themselves are fine, they still read 6.8 volts in series, just dead at
    the circuitry outputs.
    I can charge them in series or separately.
    They're two batteries wired in series with no specs or ratings on
    them.
    The do have some mod#'s.
    LGR18500P
    AD30A
    I can't find any info on these on the net
     
  8. Ken Weitzel

    Ken Weitzel Guest

    Hi Gothika...

    First, absolutely no trickle charging!!

    Here are a couple of sites for you to begin your
    course :)

    http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm

    http://www.electronicproducts.com/ShowPage.asp?SECTION=3700&PRIMID=&FileName=augsem1.aug2003

    (that's a mighty long line, so just in case it split
    in a not so good place, here it is again, which I've split
    in a nice place so you can easily paste it together again)

    http://www.electronicproducts.com/ShowPage.asp?
    SECTION=3700&PRIMID=&FileName=augsem1.aug2003

    And finally, here's the home page (Toshiba) of
    your LGR18500P batteries...

    http://www.toshiba-corp.com.tw/e3b.htm

    Ken
     
  9. gothika

    gothika Guest

    Thanks Ken!

    With the info I got from those links I know what type of charger to
    look for.
    These batteries take a 4.2v cv/cc charger.
    I did do a bit of research on the circuitry and found out why they
    died. Heat plain and simple.
    These modules have a permanent safety thermal fuse to protect from
    external heat.
    I live and work in the south where it can get as hot as a blast
    furnace.
    I would often charge these batteries with a car adapter charger, and
    would leave them in the car in the summer heat charging off the car
    battery.
    Most all died shortly after retrieving them from the car.
    Either the safety fuse blew or the battery overheat fuse blew when I
    started drawing current from an already hot battery.(Gadzooks! though
    these new fangled batteries would be tougher than the old stuff.)
    Looking at the circuit card on one of these batteries I don't think
    finding and changing out the fuse would be an easy task.(even if I
    could find replacement fused links.)
    I have a friend that has the local wholesale battery warehouse in my
    local, think I'll see if he's got anything in a Li-ion charger that
    fits the bill.
    Thanks again...
     
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