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Legacy floppy drives

  • Thread starter Gareth Magennis
  • Start date
G

Gareth Magennis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

this is a problem I come across fairly frequently. I have a keyboard
(synthesiser) with a dead floppy drive which is no longer available as a
spare from the manufacturers (Korg). Occasionally with situations like this
I have been lucky and a PC drive has worked, but mostly they don't seem to
be compatible. Can you reconfigure a PC drive somehow to get it to work in
other systems? There doesn't seem to be much info on the net about floppy
systems. Can you swap heads from a new PC drive?

Any info appreciated.


Thanks,

Gareth.
 
L

LASERandDVDfan

Jan 1, 1970
0
this is a problem I come across fairly frequently. I have a keyboard
(synthesiser) with a dead floppy drive which is no longer available as a
spare from the manufacturers (Korg). Occasionally with situations like this
I have been lucky and a PC drive has worked, but mostly they don't seem to
be compatible. Can you reconfigure a PC drive somehow to get it to work in
other systems? There doesn't seem to be much info on the net about floppy
systems. Can you swap heads from a new PC drive?

Not really.

Check the jumper settings of the replacement drive and get them to match those
on the broken drive.

Of course, different manufacturers mean different jumper configurations. -
Reinhart
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gareth Magennis said:
Hi,

this is a problem I come across fairly frequently. I have a keyboard
(synthesiser) with a dead floppy drive which is no longer available as a
spare from the manufacturers (Korg). Occasionally with situations like
this I have been lucky and a PC drive has worked, but mostly they don't
seem to be compatible. Can you reconfigure a PC drive somehow to get it to
work in other systems? There doesn't seem to be much info on the net
about floppy systems. Can you swap heads from a new PC drive?

Any info appreciated.


Thanks,

Gareth.

What legacy drive are you talking about? The most commonly used in PCs were
5.25 double side double density drives but there have been numerous others.
Most of all these drives could configured for four different addresses.
Headload could sometimes be set on or off as well as other details. The
first thing you need to know are details about the drive you want to
replace. Then you can look for an old PC and check whether you can configure
its drive for equipment you want to repair. I have some documentation about
some drives that were used in Philips PCs. But I doubt you can find much on
the net. These equipment was used in the times before the net became
populair.

petrus bitbyter.
 
D

do_not_spam_me

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gareth Magennis said:
I have a keyboard (synthesiser) with a dead floppy drive which
is no longer available as a spare from the manufacturers (Korg).
Occasionally with situations like this I have been lucky and
a PC drive has worked, but mostly they don't seem to be
compatible. Can you reconfigure a PC drive somehow to get it
to work in other systems? There doesn't seem to be much info
on the net about floppy systems. Can you swap heads from a
new PC drive?

TEAC, Mitsui, and Samsung may have information about their floppy
drives, but
Googling "floppy disk pinout" returned several good hits, including
www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/diskstepper.html (www.hut.fi has
several electronics FAQs).

The whole head carriage assembly can be swapped, but then you'll have
to readjust the head alignment, index sensor position, and track 0
sensor. These can be adjusted well enough with a scope and a regular
factory pre-recorded disk.

The problem with most floppy drives now is that they don't have
configuration jumpers because they're made to be used only with
IBM-style PCs, meaning they're permanently set as the 2nd drive. But
you should be able to cut and solder traces to change this, or just
make a PC-style floppy cable where pins 10-16 are flipped over.
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a keyboard
(synthesiser) with a dead floppy drive which is no longer available as a
spare from the manufacturers (Korg). Occasionally with situations like this
I have been lucky and a PC drive has worked, but mostly they don't seem to
be compatible. Can you reconfigure a PC drive somehow to get it to work in
other systems?

I once adapted a PC FDD for a Commodore Amiga. Perhaps you could use
the same technique.

The major differences between IBM and Amiga FDDs lie in two pins:

Pin 34 is IBM's DISKCHANGE output while pin 2 is a LO/HI DENSITY
input.

Pin 34 is the Amiga's READY output while pin 2 is the DISKCHANGE
output.

The modification is described here:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]&output=gplain


- Franc Zabkar
 
G

Gareth Magennis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I made myself clear though. What I am
talking about is the replacement of floppy drives in a non PC system with a
PC drive.

e.g. the Korg music keyboard in question will have a microcontroller or
microprocessor running the show and controlling the drive. They will not be
using Windows or DOS. As PC drives will not work I assume it is because the
software is written with a specific drive in mind, and the number of sectors
per track, spin speed, file system or whatever other paramaters are
different to that used in PC's. I just don't know whether the manufacturers
are likely to use completely their own way of doing things, or whether there
are just one or two protocols in common usage, and you could somehow change
the new PC drive to the same configuration as the old. I assume for the
same reasons, that you can't put a PC dive in a Mac?

Excuse me if I've got the wrong idea about how floppies work.



Thanks,

Gareth.
 
G

Gareth Magennis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks - I've been assuming that it can't be that simple. Maybe I'm being a
bit dumb here!

Gareth.
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
| Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I made myself clear though. What I
am
| talking about is the replacement of floppy drives in a non PC system with
a
| PC drive.
|
| e.g. the Korg music keyboard in question will have a microcontroller or
| microprocessor running the show and controlling the drive. They will not
be
| using Windows or DOS. As PC drives will not work I assume it is because
the
| software is written with a specific drive in mind, and the number of
sectors
| per track, spin speed, file system or whatever other paramaters are
| different to that used in PC's.

That's possible depending on the date this was made. Brother made a battery
floppy drive for their sewing machines which is incompatible with any other
drive - the disks can't be read without that drive.

| I just don't know whether the manufacturers
| are likely to use completely their own way of doing things, or whether
there
| are just one or two protocols in common usage, and you could somehow
change
| the new PC drive to the same configuration as the old.

After a certain point in time this would not happen. The IBM PC drives
became the universal system used - very cheap and standard.

| I assume for the
| same reasons, that you can't put a PC dive in a Mac?

That was the case but even Apple saw the light - eventually.

N
 
D

do_not_spam_me

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gareth Magennis said:
I'm not sure I made myself clear though. What I am talking about
is the replacement of floppy drives in a non PC system with a PC drive.

e.g. the Korg music keyboard in question will have a microcontroller or
microprocessor running the show and controlling the drive. They will not be
using Windows or DOS. As PC drives will not work I assume it is because the
software is written with a specific drive in mind, and the number of sectors
per track, spin speed, file system or whatever other paramaters are
different to that used in PC's. I just don't know whether the manufacturers
are likely to use completely their own way of doing things, or whether there
are just one or two protocols in common usage, and you could somehow change
the new PC drive to the same configuration as the old. I assume for the
same reasons, that you can't put a PC dive in a Mac?

Excuse me if I've got the wrong idea about how floppies work.

5.25", 3.5", and even those odd 4.xx" Atlas/IBM floppy drives don't
care about the number of sectors per track because they don't do any
processing of the data format but simply convert the signals between
TTL level and whatever levels the heads use. IBM PCs are a bit odd in
that they don't use Drive_Select 0, 1, 2, or 3 to differentiate among
drives but instead simply set all the drives as the second one rely on
the cable to select the individual drives. This is why IBM-type PCs
have wires 10-16 flipped over. The link I provided gave the standard
and IBM pinouts for drives, and you may be able to trace out the edge
connectors to the jumpers to determine what some of the signals do.
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
After a certain point in time this would not happen. The IBM PC drives
became the universal system used - very cheap and standard.

| I assume for the
| same reasons, that you can't put a PC dive in a Mac?

That was the case but even Apple saw the light - eventually.

When? I've always been a PC guy so I haven't kept up, but the most recent
Mac I have here (a PowerMac 8600) made in the late 90's still has the
electric eject mechanism on the floppy drive just like the earliest (ancient
Mac 512K). The ribbon cable is significantly narrower than a PC floppy drive
as well, but perhaps this changed later on?
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gareth Magennis said:
Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I made myself clear though. What I am
talking about is the replacement of floppy drives in a non PC system with a
PC drive.

e.g. the Korg music keyboard in question will have a microcontroller or
microprocessor running the show and controlling the drive. They will not be
using Windows or DOS. As PC drives will not work I assume it is because the
software is written with a specific drive in mind, and the number of sectors
per track, spin speed, file system or whatever other paramaters are
different to that used in PC's. I just don't know whether the manufacturers
are likely to use completely their own way of doing things, or whether there
are just one or two protocols in common usage, and you could somehow change
the new PC drive to the same configuration as the old. I assume for the
same reasons, that you can't put a PC dive in a Mac?

Excuse me if I've got the wrong idea about how floppies work.

What he said still applies, the Amiga is not a standard PC, the disk formats
vary significantly and the hardware interface is slightly different, and I
suspect this is similar to your problem. A floppy drive itself has very
little intelligence built into it, so as long as your hardware uses the same
pinout so you can talk to it, the drive will do pretty much whatever you
tell it to. The sectors, tracks, density, etc is determined by the host
controller and OS.
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
|
| > After a certain point in time this would not happen. The IBM PC drives
| > became the universal system used - very cheap and standard.
| >
| > | I assume for the
| > | same reasons, that you can't put a PC dive in a Mac?
| >
| > That was the case but even Apple saw the light - eventually.
| >
|
| When? I've always been a PC guy so I haven't kept up, but the most recent
| Mac I have here (a PowerMac 8600) made in the late 90's still has the
| electric eject mechanism on the floppy drive just like the earliest
(ancient
| Mac 512K). The ribbon cable is significantly narrower than a PC floppy
drive
| as well, but perhaps this changed later on?

In the sense that later models of Mac could read/write the IBM format, which
earlier ones could not do AFAIK.

N
 
J

John Robertson

Jan 1, 1970
0
You need to find the original floppy's specifications for your
application. There were a number of configurations available for
floppies back in the 80's that turn out to be real headaches
now...TEAC drives were great in that they could often be jumpered to
match the machine they were used in.

You basically need to do some research I'm afraid...
I have some PDF's of jumpers for old drives email me

John :-#)#

Hi,

this is a problem I come across fairly frequently. I have a keyboard
(synthesiser) with a dead floppy drive which is no longer available as a
spare from the manufacturers (Korg). Occasionally with situations like this
I have been lucky and a PC drive has worked, but mostly they don't seem to
be compatible. Can you reconfigure a PC drive somehow to get it to work in
other systems? There doesn't seem to be much info on the net about floppy
systems. Can you swap heads from a new PC drive?

Any info appreciated.


Thanks,

Gareth.

(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
|
| When? I've always been a PC guy so I haven't kept up, but the most recent
| Mac I have here (a PowerMac 8600) made in the late 90's still has the
| electric eject mechanism on the floppy drive just like the earliest
(ancient
| Mac 512K). The ribbon cable is significantly narrower than a PC floppy
drive
| as well, but perhaps this changed later on?

In the sense that later models of Mac could read/write the IBM format, which
earlier ones could not do AFAIK.


The high density "Superdrives" that came out in the late 80's could read PC
formatted disks, I don't think the earlier 800k drives could but I've never
tried.
 
T

TW

Jan 1, 1970
0
The 800K drives were (are) not compatible with PC or Mac HD formats
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
TW said:
The 800K drives were (are) not compatible with PC or Mac HD formats

Obviously not HD, I don't recall if the Mac 800k drives can read PC low
density (720k) disks or not though.
 
M

Michael Black

Jan 1, 1970
0
James Sweet" ([email protected]) said:
Obviously not HD, I don't recall if the Mac 800k drives can read PC low
density (720k) disks or not though.
No.

It dates back to the Apple II. Steve Wozniak realized he could use far
fewer parts, and inexpensive at that, if he used GCR rather than MFM
to put the data on the disk. It actually resulted in Apple using stripped
down drives, because much of the elctronics on a standard drive were
not needed.

The pattern followed when the Mac came along.

It was only as the Mac developed, and need/demand for reading and writing
"IBM type" floppies did they get fancier and come along with the "superdrive"
that could handle both formats. At the very lest, this didn't happen till
the 800K were about to disappear, and I'm pretty certain they didn't
arrive until the drives could handle 1.44K floppies.

Michael
 
W

WEBPA

Jan 1, 1970
0
The 800K drives were CLV (constant linear velocity)...which means that they
turn faster when the head is closer to the inside. All PC drives are CRV
(constant radial velocity)...meaning that the spindle turns at a constant
speed. This on top of the data format differences among the (several) floppy
disk formats Apple has used. At one time, there were software emulators that
would (sometimes) enable Apple floppy drives to read PC disks 720K single sided
only). It is probably not physically possible to do it the other way around.
Thus, if your desire is to use a PC floppy to read Apple disks, you are not
going to have much luck.
Obviously not HD, I don't recall if the Mac 800k drives can read PC low
density (720k) disks or not though.

webpa
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
| The 800K drives were CLV (constant linear velocity)...which means that
they
| turn faster when the head is closer to the inside. All PC drives are CRV
| (constant radial velocity)...meaning that the spindle turns at a constant
| speed. This on top of the data format differences among the (several)
floppy
| disk formats Apple has used. At one time, there were software emulators
that
| would (sometimes) enable Apple floppy drives to read PC disks 720K single
sided
| only). It is probably not physically possible to do it the other way
around.
| Thus, if your desire is to use a PC floppy to read Apple disks, you are
not
| going to have much luck.

I believe the CatWeasel is now in production again.

N
 
F

FoulDragon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Some early Macs had "auto-insert" drives. Put the disc in halfway and it eats
it.

The IIcx I restored had one, the Umax 603e I scrapped didn't
 
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