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Lead acid Batteries

Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?

I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for
sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around
6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and
then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3
amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within
1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much.

When I again recharged the battery, it sustained the load for
a longer period indicating the capacity had increased to
around 5 amp hours.

I'm wondering if cycling the battery over several charge and
discharge cycles will improve the capacity?

This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity
for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from
several charge and discharge dycles?

-Bill
 
K

Ken Weitzel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?

I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for
sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around
6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and
then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3
amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within
1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much.

When I again recharged the battery, it sustained the load for
a longer period indicating the capacity had increased to
around 5 amp hours.

I'm wondering if cycling the battery over several charge and
discharge cycles will improve the capacity?

This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity
for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from
several charge and discharge dycles?

-Bill


Hi Bill...

Charging your battery at 1 amp for 10 hours is little
more than teasing it... :)

If a 1 amp charger is all that's available, you'll have to
charge it for several days before you can do a meaningful
test.

Please do it out of doors.

Take care.

Ken
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?
This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity
for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from
several charge and discharge dycles?

You need to deep cycle it according to what I have been told. Fully charge
it with a good charger (5 or 10 amps) then run it down with a headlamp load
to dim then repeat. A good battery shop could tell you how to do it.

N
 
J

Just Another Theremin Fan

Jan 1, 1970
0
then run it down with a headlamp load to dim then repeat

Rubbish. Car batteries are not designed for deep discharge cycling
(running them completely flat). They have no need to be. Doing so will
damage a good one.
 
J

JR North

Jan 1, 1970
0
You may be able to restore most of the capacity depending on the
condition and age of the battery, but you will need a charge rate of 30
amps or so to boil off the plates. A little trickle charger wont do.
JR

Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?

I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for
sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around
6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and
then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3
amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within
1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much.

When I again recharged the battery, it sustained the load for
a longer period indicating the capacity had increased to
around 5 amp hours.

I'm wondering if cycling the battery over several charge and
discharge cycles will improve the capacity?

This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity
for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from
several charge and discharge dycles?

-Bill


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
 
A

Andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you use a charger that has "desulfator" capability, you can reverse
much
of the sulfation that has taken place on the plates. I have heard many
claims
on this , both for informed and un-informed sources. Lots of patents
have been
issued for desulfators. Lots of lab tests..... It probably works.

The desulfator chargers cost a little more, tho. Instead of putting a
DC or
pulsating unipolar AC on the plates, they put a high frequency pulse on
the
plates to charge the battery with thousands of little pulses per
second, the
theory being that it "shakes loose" the sulfation. Not complicated,
but
it takes more than a transformer and a rectifier in the charger......

I haven't tried it myself, but have researched it pretty well. I think
it probably
works......

Andy
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just Another Theremin Fan said:
Rubbish. Car batteries are not designed for deep discharge cycling
(running them completely flat). They have no need to be. Doing so will
damage a good one.

What part of 'dim' did you fail to understand? This is advice from a car
battery rebuilder.

N
 
N

none

Jan 1, 1970
0
What part of 'dim' did you fail to understand? This is advice from a car
battery rebuilder.

N
Sounds to me it's not the battery that's dim.
 
J

Just Another Theremin Fan

Jan 1, 1970
0
What part of 'dim' did you fail to understand? This is advice from a
car battery rebuilder.

In that case, they really should know better!
 
J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?

I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for
sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around
6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and
then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3
amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within
1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much.

The fact that it got to 12.5V indicates that it is probably not
shorted internally. Charge it up again and leave it overnight. If it
still measures above 12V then it is likely to be restorable.

Open up the cell caps and look down each one with a flashlight. You
should see the plates with paper separators between them. The paper
will be tan colored and I'm guessing that you'll see grey plates
between each tan separator. If so, your best bet is to charge the
battery extremely slowly.

I recommend that you just put a small lamp between the charger and the
battery, in series, to limit the current. A charging current of about
50 mA is about right. You will need to keep this up until half of the
plates turn chocolate brown. At that point, the battery will be fully
charged. If your battery is badly sulfated, this process may take more
than a week.

During that time you should check the voltage across the battery. You
can do this at the same time that you're charging it slowly. If the
battery voltage every falls below 12V during this time, you have a
shorted cell, and the battery is probably not salvagable.

-
 
K

Ken Weitzel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
The fact that it got to 12.5V indicates that it is probably not
shorted internally. Charge it up again and leave it overnight. If it
still measures above 12V then it is likely to be restorable.

Open up the cell caps and look down each one with a flashlight. You
should see the plates with paper separators between them. The paper
will be tan colored and I'm guessing that you'll see grey plates
between each tan separator. If so, your best bet is to charge the
battery extremely slowly.

I recommend that you just put a small lamp between the charger and the
battery, in series, to limit the current. A charging current of about
50 mA is about right. You will need to keep this up until half of the
plates turn chocolate brown. At that point, the battery will be fully
charged. If your battery is badly sulfated, this process may take more
than a week.

During that time you should check the voltage across the battery. You
can do this at the same time that you're charging it slowly. If the
battery voltage every falls below 12V during this time, you have a
shorted cell, and the battery is probably not salvagable.

Hi Jim...

Just off the top of my head, I suspect that at 50 ma's
he'd better start charging it now if you wants to use it
next winter :)

Take care.

Ken
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?
I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for
sometime in a discharged state.

No. The only way to store a *good* battery is to fully charge it then
drain the acid and rinse out with suitable soft water. Seal it in shrink
wrap and it will keep for many years, to be revived with fresh electrolyte
and a re-charge.
 
J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just off the top of my head, I suspect that at 50 ma's
he'd better start charging it now if you wants to use it
next winter :)

Yes, it will seem agonizingly slow, but it needs to be slow because
the lead sulfate can only be converted to lead as quickly as it will
go into solution, and the lead sulfate in a sulfated cell is much less
soluble than that in a freshly discharged cell (different crystal
structure.)

If you try to force the charging process, you'll just hydrolize water,
and this can damage the sintered plates if it happens too vigorously.

You don't want to "drive off" the lead sulfate, as that takes sulfate
ions out of circulation and just leads to buildup at the bottom of the
cell which will eventually short it out.

With patience, this will generally work if the only problem is
sulfation, which is what happens to a battery that is left in a
discharged state for a long time. The lead sulfate slowly converts to
a much less soluble crystal structure over time.

I've done this many times, but it doesn't always work. About half the
time you'll find that one or more of the cells are shorted and the
battery is only useful as a tradein.

I have never managed to restore a shorted cell.

-
 
B

Bob Shuman

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have found from experience that if you keep a lead acid battery fully
charged using a trickle charger, and make sure the water is kept full as
well that it will keep for many , many years.

Bob
 
N

none

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes, it will seem agonizingly slow, but it needs to be slow because
the lead sulfate can only be converted to lead as quickly as it will
go into solution, and the lead sulfate in a sulfated cell is much less
soluble than that in a freshly discharged cell (different crystal
structure.)

If you try to force the charging process, you'll just hydrolize water,
and this can damage the sintered plates if it happens too vigorously.

You don't want to "drive off" the lead sulfate, as that takes sulfate
ions out of circulation and just leads to buildup at the bottom of the
cell which will eventually short it out.

With patience, this will generally work if the only problem is
sulfation, which is what happens to a battery that is left in a
discharged state for a long time. The lead sulfate slowly converts to
a much less soluble crystal structure over time.

I've done this many times, but it doesn't always work. About half the
time you'll find that one or more of the cells are shorted and the
battery is only useful as a tradein.

I have never managed to restore a shorted cell.

-

I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable.
A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates.
They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of
service work.
 
M

meirman

Jan 1, 1970
0
In sci.electronics.repair on 21 May 2005 20:14:08 -0700
[email protected] posted:
Is it possible to resurrect a lead acid battery from the dead?

I have an old 12 volt automobile battery that was stored for
sometime in a discharged state. The battery voltage read around
6 volts in the discharged state. I charged it at 1 amp for 10 hours and
then tested the capacity using a automotive tail light drawing 1.3
amps. The battery voltage fell from 12.5 volts to around 9 volts within
1.5 hours indicating the capacity was not too much.

When I again recharged the battery, it sustained the load for
a longer period indicating the capacity had increased to
around 5 amp hours.

I'm wondering if cycling the battery over several charge and
discharge cycles will improve the capacity?

This charge and discharge cycling seems to improve the capacity
for a couple cycles, how much improvement should I expect from
several charge and discharge dycles?

-Bill

Make sure you have adequate water in each cell, and use steam
distilled water. It's for sale at the supermarket in gallon bottles.
Also useful in steam irons. (although my plastic bottle started
leaking after 5 or 10 years.) The cell is full when the water level
is high enough that it reaches the bottom of the circular tube through
which one fills the battery. One can see that this is the case when
he sees the miniscus in a circle around the bottom of the tube. When
the level is lower, there is a miniscus, but it is along the edges of
the much larger rectangle that is the cross section of a cell *below*
the filler tube. In other words, when you can see the miniscus, the
battery cell is sufficiently full. Don't fill much more than that.

Though there are some sealed autobatteries I think, most of them now
are designed to look like they are sealed. That is, they don't have
the 6 soda-pop-bottle top caps that batteries used to have, one for
each cell. Instead there are 2 flat panels that pry off, each with
three caps molded to the bottom. I think there is usually a 2 or 3
inch, narrow slot somewhere along the edge that indicates the cap
comes off, and is a good place to pry, but I'm not sure how obvious it
is in all models.


i HAVEN'T paid too much attention lately, but when I did, everything I
ever heard was that one had to charge a lead acid battery slowly to
get the best result.

If one charges too fast, the lead in solution gets deposited back on
the lead plate before the lead sulfate** can dissolve. The result is
what is called spongey lead. I guess one problem that results from
this is that the sulfate radicals are no longer dissolved and
therefore there is not as much H2SO4.

So a one amp charger is very good. And slower would be better I
guess, but one would have to do something additional to make it
slower. When I ran my battery down to the ground, unintentionally but
for reasons I forget right now (leaving the lights on?) it would take
about 24 hours to recharge it with a one amp charger. (I guess at 50
milliamps it would take about 20 days, n'est pas?)

When I got a jump and had to go somewhere and was therefore going to
recharge the battery while driving, I kept the heater fan on high and
the headlights on to slow the charging rate, but I probably didn't
slow it enough.


Charging the battery tends to emit hydrogen through the vents, which
is why people are warned against sparks and to have adequate
ventilation, and I already mentioned the loss of sulfate radicals, the
other half of sulfuric acid. Yet, I've also read not to add more
acid, since by the theory that goes with that, only water is lost from
the battery. The two seem to contradict each other.


**PbSO4, I think it is, but maybe it was lead oxide (PbO2),

What makes lead acid batteries rechargeable is that the products of
electrical generation remain either in solution or soluable. In, for
example, carbon zinc flashlight batteries, this is not the case.

However, not all gets redissolved, and there is an empty inch or two
at the bottom of batteries where chunks of lead compounds, or detached
lead can settle. For this purpose, the more empty space the better,
because I think the most common cause of cell shorting is that the
level of junk in the bottom gets high enough to touch two consecutive
plates, or two other plates that should not be connected, except
through the acid solution. OTOH, the more empty space at the bottom,
either the bigger the battery and the more acid needed, or the smaller
the plates and the lower the maximum output per time.

Meirman
 
M

meirman

Jan 1, 1970
0
In sci.electronics.repair on Mon, 23 May 2005 23:00:20 -0500 "Bob
Shuman said:
I have found from experience that if you keep a lead acid battery fully
charged using a trickle charger, and make sure the water is kept full as
well that it will keep for many , many years.

Bob

I guess this is OT, but I like this story. In 1966 I had a '50 Olds
with a 6-volt battery, not strong enough unless totally charged to
start my big V-8 in the cold Chicago winter (which is why they started
using 12 volt) I had a 1 amp 6volt/12volt charger, given to me by my
cousin who gave me the car.

I put the charger inside the hood and plugged into an extension cord
whenever I was home, but 6 volts was not enough, and I then set it to
12 volts. And the car started all winter. Inside the charger, the
glass circuit breaker (which looked like a long glass neon light or a
small xmas tree light) tripped ever 30 seconds and reset automatically
5 seconds later, and it ran like that day and night for 4 months. I
guess that is about 300,000 times. Years later I had to replace the
selenium rectifier with regular diodes, but now it is almost 40 years
later and the charger still works fine, including its circuit breaker.

The extension cord was something I made up from heavy twisted-pair
wire, with steel strands it seemed, rather than copper. It plugged
into the pantry of the place we lived and two of the four months,
although suspended at both ends, the wire was under the snow for 15
feet, but that didn't cause any problem either. Not even a blown fuse
inside where the house.

Meirman
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have found from experience that if you keep a lead acid battery fully
charged using a trickle charger, and make sure the water is kept full as
well that it will keep for many , many years.

Indeed, but few will bother. A decent recharge every few months or so
would do as well. But I've a suspicion the makers incorporate separators
that self destruct if left in the acid.
 
J

Jim Adney

Jan 1, 1970
0
I miss the days when you could buy a battery that was serviceable.
A heavy glass plate case with bolt on top and removable plates.
They would last forever as long as one was willing to do a bit of
service work.

I'm afraid I'm not old enough to have ever seen one of those. When
were they used?

-
 
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