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LC ladder filter questions

M

maxfoo

Jan 1, 1970
0
John:

[snip]
the filter design becomes much simpler, and I'd guess that
sensitivities would be much lower. A multistage LC filter often has
awkward component ratios, but the sectionalized thing I'm suggesting
would have much reduced interaction, so each little clump can be
whatever impedance that's handy, and use a more practical set of
values.

John
[snip]

Your guess would be incorrect!

:)

At the risk of repeating myself,

Why?

John

John, you're embarrassing yourself, read his book first. :)






Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.
 
R

Russell Shaw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Peter said:
Tom:

Well in all of the "textbook" literaturethat I know of, including Zverev
and most others [BTW... I have most of of the best filter references in
my personal library.] the only one that I ever found who discussed, let
alone tabulated, pre-distorted design was/is Louis Weinberg.
...

Zverev has predistorted filter tables.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
John:

[snip]
the filter design becomes much simpler, and I'd guess that
sensitivities would be much lower. A multistage LC filter often has
awkward component ratios, but the sectionalized thing I'm suggesting
would have much reduced interaction, so each little clump can be
whatever impedance that's handy, and use a more practical set of
values.

John
[snip]

Your guess would be incorrect!

:)

At the risk of repeating myself,

Why?

John

John, you're embarrassing yourself, read his book first. :)


OK, we have a low-order, third maybe, LC filter, which has nice
reasonable L and C values. We terminate it and run the signal through
an opamp buffer. The buffer has an input capacitance of 1 pF, an
output impedance of a few ohms, and it's flat to over 2 GHz. After the
buffer, we have another low-order LC filter. So we've made a
higher-order LC filter out of simpler sections, just like we do when
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

[1] actually not embarassed, just better informed. If every idea gets
slapped down for being imperfect, pretty soon people will stop having
ideas. Ideas are toys, fun to play with but fragile.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandSNIP
techTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote (in <931g701pd0f6un9t33qgh9l6bjjgs0lqeu@
4ax.com>) about 'LC ladder filter questions', on Sat, 10 Apr 2004:
So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

[1] actually not embarassed, just better informed. If every idea gets
slapped down for being imperfect, pretty soon people will stop having
ideas. Ideas are toys, fun to play with but fragile.

I can say why it *might*, but I don't think it's a certainty.

If component values in the section after the buffer vary, that variation
has its full effect on the filter response. But in the unbuffered case,
those variations affect the responses of the preceding sections, which
*might* provide a compensating effect.

Maybe it can be shown that it always does have such a welcome effect.
 
M

maxfoo

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, we have a low-order, third maybe, LC filter, which has nice
reasonable L and C values. We terminate it and run the signal through
an opamp buffer. The buffer has an input capacitance of 1 pF, an
output impedance of a few ohms, and it's flat to over 2 GHz. After the
buffer, we have another low-order LC filter. So we've made a
higher-order LC filter out of simpler sections, just like we do when
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

What's that part number on the buffer op amp that has a flat response from
dc-2400mhz? I want to buy out the stock....

thanks,



Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, we have a low-order, third maybe, LC filter, which has nice
reasonable L and C values. We terminate it and run the signal through
an opamp buffer. The buffer has an input capacitance of 1 pF, an
output impedance of a few ohms, and it's flat to over 2 GHz. After the
buffer, we have another low-order LC filter. So we've made a
higher-order LC filter out of simpler sections, just like we do when
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

What's that part number on the buffer op amp that has a flat response from
dc-2400mhz? I want to buy out the stock....

thanks,

THS4302.

Welcome.

John
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that maxfoo <maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass
..com> wrote (in said:
OK, we have a low-order, third maybe, LC filter, which has nice
reasonable L and C values. We terminate it and run the signal through
an opamp buffer. The buffer has an input capacitance of 1 pF, an
output impedance of a few ohms, and it's flat to over 2 GHz. After the
buffer, we have another low-order LC filter. So we've made a
higher-order LC filter out of simpler sections, just like we do when
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

What's that part number on the buffer op amp that has a flat response from
dc-2400mhz? I want to buy out the stock....

The pat number is '20 AWG'. Note that the spec given above doesn't
mention the input resistance.(;-)
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that maxfoo <maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass
.com> wrote (in said:
OK, we have a low-order, third maybe, LC filter, which has nice
reasonable L and C values. We terminate it and run the signal through
an opamp buffer. The buffer has an input capacitance of 1 pF, an
output impedance of a few ohms, and it's flat to over 2 GHz. After the
buffer, we have another low-order LC filter. So we've made a
higher-order LC filter out of simpler sections, just like we do when
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

What's that part number on the buffer op amp that has a flat response from
dc-2400mhz? I want to buy out the stock....

The pat number is '20 AWG'. Note that the spec given above doesn't
mention the input resistance.(;-)

The THS4302 typical input impedance is 1.6 megs plus 1 pF, and output
impedance is 0.2 ohms, good for 180 mA drive. Its -3 dB point is
claimed to be 2.4 GHz typ, and they seem to be at least that good in
real life. Transient response is absurdly clean as compared to MMICS
that are rated at much higher frequencies. My only small complaint is
the 6 volt max supply rating... I'd prefer 30 or so.

Semiconductors have been getting faster steadily since 30 KHz
point-contact transistors, but people still are surprised.

John
 
M

maxfoo

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, we have a low-order, third maybe, LC filter, which has nice
reasonable L and C values. We terminate it and run the signal through
an opamp buffer. The buffer has an input capacitance of 1 pF, an
output impedance of a few ohms, and it's flat to over 2 GHz. After the
buffer, we have another low-order LC filter. So we've made a
higher-order LC filter out of simpler sections, just like we do when
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John

What's that part number on the buffer op amp that has a flat response from
dc-2400mhz? I want to buy out the stock....

thanks,

THS4302.

Welcome.

John
Noise: 2.8 nV/Hz that's too high, wanted to use it for an active loop filter to
replace the ths4130 1.3nV/Hz I'm using now. My PLL phase noise spec is 140dBc/Hz
@100khz offset. Wish it was pin compatible and had a higher supply +/-vcc, I'd
order samples to compare...


Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Noise: 2.8 nV/Hz that's too high, wanted to use it for an active loop filter to
replace the ths4130 1.3nV/Hz I'm using now. My PLL phase noise spec is 140dBc/Hz
@100khz offset. Wish it was pin compatible

Can't be... it doesn't have pins!

John
 
T

Tony

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am suggesting using LCs as the filter elements, but with a few
essentially transparent buffers breaking up sections (and providing
distributed gain, if we want it.) Once sections are unilateralized,
the filter design becomes much simpler, and I'd guess that
sensitivities would be much lower. A multistage LC filter often has
awkward component ratios, but the sectionalized thing I'm suggesting
would have much reduced interaction, so each little clump can be
whatever impedance that's handy, and use a more practical set of
values.

John

Like you, I would once have expected this to be the case, and I was quite
surprised the first time I simulated a 9 pole Butterworth LPF. As an active
filter I needed considerably more precise parts than the junk box could provide,
but as a single L-C network the response was still tolerable even when after
only minor juggling I just dropped in the nearest E6 values (of course in
practice the Q of the chokes I had caused some minor discrepancies, but even
that was easily allowed for). It seems that the interaction between L-C elements
actually works in your favour when variations occur.

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am suggesting using LCs as the filter elements, but with a few
essentially transparent buffers breaking up sections (and providing
distributed gain, if we want it.) Once sections are unilateralized,
the filter design becomes much simpler, and I'd guess that
sensitivities would be much lower. A multistage LC filter often has
awkward component ratios, but the sectionalized thing I'm suggesting
would have much reduced interaction, so each little clump can be
whatever impedance that's handy, and use a more practical set of
values.

John

Like you, I would once have expected this to be the case, and I was quite
surprised the first time I simulated a 9 pole Butterworth LPF. As an active
filter I needed considerably more precise parts than the junk box could provide,
but as a single L-C network the response was still tolerable even when after
only minor juggling I just dropped in the nearest E6 values (of course in
practice the Q of the chokes I had caused some minor discrepancies, but even
that was easily allowed for). It seems that the interaction between L-C elements
actually works in your favour when variations occur.

Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)


OK, is it really the case that many-section LC filters have less
component sensitivity than a cascaded-section, buffered filter of
equivalent transfer function?

John
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin
So why does the presence of the buffer increase component
sensitivity? If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably
embarassed. [1]


John

[1] actually not embarassed, just better informed. If every idea gets
slapped down for being imperfect, pretty soon people will stop having
ideas. Ideas are toys, fun to play with but fragile.

I can say why it *might*, but I don't think it's a certainty.

If component values in the section after the buffer vary, that
variation has its full effect on the filter response. But in the
unbuffered case, those variations affect the responses of the
preceding sections, which *might* provide a compensating effect.

Maybe it can be shown that it always does have such a welcome effect.

Simply run a Monte Carlo spice simulation on the two circuits types. It
will take a couple of minutes rather than spending months of in-depth
mathematical masturbation.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
M

Malcolm Reeves

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, is it really the case that many-section LC filters have less
component sensitivity than a cascaded-section, buffered filter of
equivalent transfer function?

I recently designed a large filter. I started out with biquads, the
equivalent of your buffer LC stages. The tolerance in each stage made
the filter unworkable according to Monte Carlo analysis. Then I tried
LC ladder equivalents using gyrators. Result a workable design.

So yes LC ladders are less sensitive due to interactions. In effect
the circuit sees a average component value so centre/corner
frequency/frequencies is/are off but that is all. This is usually a
lot more tolerable than a passband that is way off being flat which is
what biquads give.

Look at what a say a sharp 3 stage bandpass filter does. You get
middle hump in 1st stage. Next stage picks up one side and 3 stage
picks up the other side. Result is passband with 3 ripples. But if
one of the stage moves relative to the other the passband is quickly
rubbish. This is what happens with buffers or biquads. With LC
ladders the movement of one stage drags the others since it loads
them. Hence the result is an overall shift giving a more tolerable
error.


--

Malcolm Reeves BSc CEng MIEE MIRSE, Full Circuit Ltd, Chippenham, UK
([email protected], [email protected] or [email protected]).
Design Service for Analogue/Digital H/W & S/W Railway Signalling and Power
electronics. More details plus freeware, Win95/98 DUN and Pspice tips, see:

http://www.fullcircuit.com or http://www.fullcircuit.co.uk

NEW - Desktop ToDo/Reminder program (free)
 
P

Peter O. Brackett

Jan 1, 1970
0
John:

[snip]
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John
[snip]

Actually it is just those interactions that you are trying to get rid of
that make
the lossless LC ladder so insensitive.

To see that a properly doubly terminated lossless LC ladder filter, which
has
all of those "intereactions" has the absolute lowest element value
sensitivities, i.e.
the sensitivities are *zero*, consider the following:

A lossless Nth order LC network optimally matched [conjugate matched] at
its passband reflection zeros has an attenuation A(f) of exactly zero at
those
reflection zeros "frk". i.e. the attenuation A(frk) = 0 dB at those N
passband
frequencies frk. Now apply a signal at any one of those frequencies of
zero attenuation, say fr and measure the attenuation at that frequency

A(fr, Ln, Cm) = 0

Then vary any Ln or Cm component. Since the filter is lossless, [L-C] there
is
no power lost in the filter and so the attenuation A simply cannot
increase, it
can only decrease from zero.

Now plot A(fr, Ln, Cm) versus any L or C value as it deviates from it's
nominal
design value. Pot attenuation A(fr) in dB on the vertical scale and say C
in Farads
for any capacitor, or inductor, across the horizontal scale.

The curve you measure of A versus C clearly touches zero attenuation
at the nominal value of C and then only increases as C is varied above and
below
its nominal value. The lossless network can only insert more loss it can't
create
gain!

The curve that you plot in this way is the sensitivity of the design to that
C.
Clearly this sensitivity has a minimum value, saddle point, at the nominal
design
value and that sensitivity function has the minimum *zero*.

You can't get much lower than that my friend!

This is true at every reflection zero in the passband and very nearly so
everywhere
throughout the passband if the passband loss is small.

The heuristic physical reasoning that I just shared with you has a rigorous
mathematical
proof, and there are some very neat simple formulas allowing you to
pre-compute
the maximum value of the sensitivity function before you even start the
design.

The matched lossless LC ladder filter operating between matched resistive
terminations
is the least sensitive and most robust filter design known to man!

Same is true even for active RC and digitial filters. The least sensitive
digital filters, least
sensitive to round off and other numerical errors and artifacts that is, are
those digital filter
structures that "mimic" lossless LC ladders.

What more can I tell you.

If you are faced with high precision demanding stringent robust design
requirments for filtering
then you can do no better than to use matched lossless LC filter design or
something that mimics
it's "interactions".

Don't eliminate "interactions" as you suggest, make good use of them.

Well designed complex interactons are what make good filter design good!
 
P

Peter O. Brackett

Jan 1, 1970
0
John:

[snip]
OK, is it really the case that many-section LC filters have less
component sensitivity than a cascaded-section, buffered filter of
equivalent transfer function?

John
[snip]

YES!
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Simply run a Monte Carlo spice simulation on the two circuits types. It
will take a couple of minutes rather than spending months of in-depth
mathematical masturbation.

Incredible: ask a simple question of presumed experts, and not only
does nobody give a helpful explanation, nobody will actually state the
bottom line. Funny, I thought this was a "discussion" group. It's more
of a "I know the answer, and you're stupid" group.

Thanks for all the help, guys.

John
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
John:

[snip]
we make an active filter out of 2nd-order unilateral sections. Since
interactions are reduced, we have another degree of freedom in the
design.

So why does the presence of the buffer increase component sensitivity?
If you can explain why it does, I'll be suitably embarassed. [1]


John
[snip]

Actually it is just those interactions that you are trying to get rid of
that make
the lossless LC ladder so insensitive.

To see that a properly doubly terminated lossless LC ladder filter, which
has
all of those "intereactions" has the absolute lowest element value
sensitivities, i.e.
the sensitivities are *zero*, consider the following:

A lossless Nth order LC network optimally matched [conjugate matched] at
its passband reflection zeros has an attenuation A(f) of exactly zero at
those
reflection zeros "frk". i.e. the attenuation A(frk) = 0 dB at those N
passband
frequencies frk. Now apply a signal at any one of those frequencies of
zero attenuation, say fr and measure the attenuation at that frequency

A(fr, Ln, Cm) = 0

Then vary any Ln or Cm component. Since the filter is lossless, [L-C] there
is
no power lost in the filter and so the attenuation A simply cannot
increase, it
can only decrease from zero.

Now plot A(fr, Ln, Cm) versus any L or C value as it deviates from it's
nominal
design value. Pot attenuation A(fr) in dB on the vertical scale and say C
in Farads
for any capacitor, or inductor, across the horizontal scale.

The curve you measure of A versus C clearly touches zero attenuation
at the nominal value of C and then only increases as C is varied above and
below
its nominal value. The lossless network can only insert more loss it can't
create
gain!

The curve that you plot in this way is the sensitivity of the design to that
C.
Clearly this sensitivity has a minimum value, saddle point, at the nominal
design
value and that sensitivity function has the minimum *zero*.

You can't get much lower than that my friend!

This is true at every reflection zero in the passband and very nearly so
everywhere
throughout the passband if the passband loss is small.

The heuristic physical reasoning that I just shared with you has a rigorous
mathematical
proof, and there are some very neat simple formulas allowing you to
pre-compute
the maximum value of the sensitivity function before you even start the
design.

The matched lossless LC ladder filter operating between matched resistive
terminations
is the least sensitive and most robust filter design known to man!

Same is true even for active RC and digitial filters. The least sensitive
digital filters, least
sensitive to round off and other numerical errors and artifacts that is, are
those digital filter
structures that "mimic" lossless LC ladders.

What more can I tell you.

If you are faced with high precision demanding stringent robust design
requirments for filtering
then you can do no better than to use matched lossless LC filter design or
something that mimics
it's "interactions".

Don't eliminate "interactions" as you suggest, make good use of them.

Well designed complex interactons are what make good filter design good!


An explanation! Thank you.

So, one last question: given, say, an 8-pole lossless LC Butterworth
lowpass, would component sensitivities be less if the filter were a
single LC network, as opposed to two cascaded (buffered) 4-poles? Both
cases would seem to satisfy your sensitivity-zero-at-nominal-value
explanation.

John
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I recently designed a large filter. I started out with biquads, the
equivalent of your buffer LC stages. The tolerance in each stage made
the filter unworkable according to Monte Carlo analysis. Then I tried
LC ladder equivalents using gyrators. Result a workable design.

So yes LC ladders are less sensitive due to interactions. In effect
the circuit sees a average component value so centre/corner
frequency/frequencies is/are off but that is all. This is usually a
lot more tolerable than a passband that is way off being flat which is
what biquads give.

Look at what a say a sharp 3 stage bandpass filter does. You get
middle hump in 1st stage. Next stage picks up one side and 3 stage
picks up the other side. Result is passband with 3 ripples. But if
one of the stage moves relative to the other the passband is quickly
rubbish. This is what happens with buffers or biquads. With LC
ladders the movement of one stage drags the others since it loads
them. Hence the result is an overall shift giving a more tolerable
error.

OK, makes sense. Thanks.

John
 
T

Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Roy McCammon said:
so, will Bartlett's Bisection method work for you?

At this point, I have a numerical solution to the original problem.
But again, I thank everyone who has posted suggestions, because they
may well help me, and even more likely will help the many lurkers who
don't post, in the future. I think this thread has elicited a whole
bunch of good ideas, and everyone has been very helpful. I wish that
were the case with all threads!

Cheers,
Tom
 
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