Laser printer gloat

[David Nebenzahl]

This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.

 

[Warren Block]

This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way.

Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.

Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit.

All the duplexers do is flip the paper over so it can refeed. Printing
on the blank side of once-printed paper shouldn't be a problem.

Several brands of big office copier/printers used to provide me with
lots of hundred-page PostScript misprints. That once-printed paper
worked fine in LaserJet 4050 and 4350 printers.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP DeskJet
printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines of "my
old printer still works; does yours?".

**I was just saying to my partner last week, that what I hated most about my
HP Laserjet 5MP (ca. 1994) was that the damned thing refuses to stop
working. I've fed it with more than a dozen cartridges (around 60,000 pages)
and it simply works and works perfectly. Print resolution is flawless, paper
jams almst unheard of (one every thousand pages or so). I've even been using
re-filled cartridges (despite HP's dire warnings), which cost around
AUS$60.00 apiece and it just won't stop. As of 2009, it can only be regarded
as a slug (6 pages/min), but it does the job. Damn it! I really wanted an
excuse to buy one of those all bells & whistles, HP colour laser printers.

FWIW: In the time I've owned the HP, I've thrown out four ink jet printers,
of various brands. They are, on the whole, utter crap. My HP will probably
still be working well into the next millenium.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge

Most toner cartridges are designed for thousands of pages.
(e.g., 5,000 pages -- 10 reams of paper)

to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)

I've had the same problem -- though I consider it an *annoyance*!
I routinely rescue color printers (not the cheap inkjets), run
them until they run out of ink/toner and then scrap/recycle them.

Unfortunately, even printing 8.5x11 photos (i.e., 100% ink coverage)
I haven't been able to "empty" any of them! I've been concentrating
on a Phaser 8200 for the past year and it looks like there are
still many months more of service left in the "ink tray" :<

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this

You've either got bad rollers, a bad fuser or "off brand" toner.
I haven't had problems with any LJ (I currently have an LJ4M+
and an LJ6P) printing "back side" (the LJ4M+ has the optional
duplexer so it *wants* to print "verso")

way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.

I couldn't *kill* my LJii! I finally had to get rid of it as
the electric costs were ridiculous (though the toner carts
were awful cheap!)

 

[D Yuniskis]

**I was just saying to my partner last week, that what I hated most about my
HP Laserjet 5MP (ca. 1994) was that the damned thing refuses to stop
working. I've fed it with more than a dozen cartridges (around 60,000 pages)
and it simply works and works perfectly. Print resolution is flawless, paper
jams almst unheard of (one every thousand pages or so). I've even been using
re-filled cartridges (despite HP's dire warnings), which cost around
AUS$60.00 apiece and it just won't stop. As of 2009, it can only be regarded
as a slug (6 pages/min), but it does the job. Damn it! I really wanted an
excuse to buy one of those all bells & whistles, HP colour laser printers.

Think carefully before buying color. Decide what you really need
from the printer (I recall going through this exercise at a company
where we were *designing* a printer). I use different printers
for different jobs.

E.g., LJ6P for low volume B&W printing -- when I want to
print a web page or "copy" a document (using a scanner);
LJ4M+ for big B&W jobs (I think it is 12PPM and duplexes
so it saves me paper); a Sony DPP-EX50 for postcard photographs;
Phaser 560 for high volume color "documents"; other "solid
inkj" phasers for large color photos; R1800 for big photos
and/or CD labels; etc.

If all you need is "multicolor business documents" (i.e., where
ICM isn't important) you can more effectively trade money for
speed, reduced supply costs, etc. OTOH, if you want to print
photos, you will find the cost of printing "business documents"
to be much higher than you would like.

FWIW: In the time I've owned the HP, I've thrown out four ink jet printers,
of various brands. They are, on the whole, utter crap. My HP will probably
still be working well into the next millenium.

HP inkjets are total crap. Some of the high end Epson's are
respectible -- *if* you maintain them well (I have an R1800,
SC3000 and SP2000P which have all performed well -- though
Photoshop doesn't like the oversized pages on the SC3000)

 

[David Nebenzahl]

Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.

Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've
never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed
sheets even when brand new.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

True. The printers expect the pages to be flat. Pages that have gone
through the printer tend to be slightly warped. That causes paper
jams.

Exactly. (And to the person in this thread who responded to this with
"bullshit", I say "bullshit!" right back atcha.)

In case I wasn't clear, the problem I was referring to was printing a
document on both front and back, where you first print the odd pages,
then run the stack back through on the other side and print the even pages.

Every non-duplexing HP LaserJet I've ever seen will **** up and jam if
you try to do this. The problem, as you said, is the curl imparted to
the paper by the fuser. I have had some success taking the first-printed
stack and "working" it vigorously to remove the curl, but it's a pain in
the ass, and not guaranteed to work.

Since there are other laser printers that don't have this problem, I can
only conclude that HP LaserJets have inferior feed mechanisms.

And I do know what the hell I'm talking about: in a previous life I was
a printer (as in a real printing press, not desktop computer printers),
so I've dealt with lots of machines that eat paper.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of
the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label saying
"Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly. It'll also
help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into the cartridge.
Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges before putting it
in the printer.

I've done all those things; none of them make the slightest difference.
(As a former printer, it's an automatic reflex for me to fan paper
before inserting it into a paper-eating machine.)

 

[Warren Block]

Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design.

Hmm. The LJ2100 feeder is kind of poor, like a lot of the earlier and
lower-end LaserJets. The 4050 and up have the best I've seen. I've got
some LJ2100s and will give this a try.

I've never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of
just-printed sheets even when brand new.

Have you tried a 4050 or newer?

 

[David Nebenzahl]

Have you tried a 4050 or newer?

No; I should have said that my experience with these printers is as of
about 5 years ago. Let us know how the feeding experiment with the 4050
goes.

 

[Bob Larter]

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of
the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label saying
"Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly. It'll also
help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into the cartridge.
Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges before putting it
in the printer.

 

[Bob Larter]

Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.

That's good advice too, although it's unlikely to be a problem on a
printer that's still on its first(!) toner cartridge.

All the duplexers do is flip the paper over so it can refeed. Printing
on the blank side of once-printed paper shouldn't be a problem.

Several brands of big office copier/printers used to provide me with
lots of hundred-page PostScript misprints. That once-printed paper
worked fine in LaserJet 4050 and 4350 printers.

Yep. I've never had any trouble printing on used paper with any
HP/Canon/Apple laser.

 

[Bob Larter]

Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've
never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed
sheets even when brand new.

Oh bullshit. I have nearly 30 years of experience with
HP/Canon/Apple/Brother lasers, & they handle double-sided printing
better than just about anything else on the market. You're obviously
doing it wrong. See my other post in this thread for tips.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

However, I do agree that HP could do a better job with their feed
mechanisms. The fix is rather simple. The typical Laserjet has the
absolute minimum amount of rubber in contact with the paper. Large
copiers have similar mechanism, but with much larger rollers on both
sides of the paper to maximize grip. They also have much thicker and
softer rubber feed rollers to maximize friction. If you want a really
reliable paper feed, it will look like a straight line offset press.

Yeah; if only we could have desktop printers with feeders as reliable as
the one on the Heidelberg Speedmaster I used to "own" ... now *that's* a
feeder!

 

[baron]

David Nebenzahl Inscribed thus:

This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the
lines of "my old printer still works; does yours?".

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000.
Not only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using
the same cartridge I got with it!

Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the
cartridge to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a
2nd cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)

If I remember correctly the toner cartridge was good for about 10K
pages.

One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed
sheets. Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to
print this way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options,
but to me, that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser
printer my old office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no
better than the HP we also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the
Panasonic would feed *any* paper you put into it, even if it had just
been run through the printer on one side. I'd always use it to print
out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.

Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.

The old Panasonic's were great printers ! As you remark it would print
on anything including the back of already printed sheets. Ours was
used with two and three part NCR paper. The hard part was the software
to ensure that it registered and collated properly.

The bottled toner was very cheap as well which made the machine very
economical compared to similar machines.

 

[PeterD]

This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

My *OLD* apple laserjet II is on it's bizillionth cartridge and still
printing. We do bulk printing of both card stock for bin lables, and
product instruction sheets (quality is really not the most important
factor for these...) We tell it to print a 100 sheet group (limited by
that tiny tray!) and set it going. Later someone grabs the sheets,
reloads the tray and off it goes again.

We are (sadly, or gladly, not sure) migrating to high speed Xerox
printers. Easily ten times faster than that Apple, and 500 sheet trays
too.

Then the LWII retires to just bin label cards, something that is done
about two times a month.

 

[PeterD]

Unfortunately, even printing 8.5x11 photos (i.e., 100% ink coverage)
I haven't been able to "empty" any of them!

You are just not printing enough!

You've either got bad rollers, a bad fuser or "off brand" toner.

Pickup rollers probably, clean with acetone as a first step try. Then
replace 'em.

...
I couldn't *kill* my LJii! I finally had to get rid of it as
the electric costs were ridiculous (though the toner carts
were awful cheap!)

Make a wonderful space heater for winter, however. Keeps my office
toasty warm!

 

[Roger Blake]

Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!

My Canon LBP-430 (same as an HP LaserJet 4L) is still soldiering on
after 15 years. I have changed the cartridge a couple of times, and
recently scored a few very inexpensive toners at a thrift store
to keep it going another 15 years.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've

never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed
sheets even when brand new.

My 4M will. However, there's no question that it's not a bad idea to let the
paper cool down and flatten out.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

Ummm.... sure:
<http://www.heidelberg.com/www/html/en/content/overview1/products/sheetfed_overview-qg>
I'm not familiar with it, but my guess is that it uses vacuum pickup
to handle large format and heavy items, such as box cardboard.

Yes. Like most real printing presses (as opposed to smaller "presses"
that are somewhat disparagingly called "duplicators"), the feeder uses
vacuum pickup, assisted by air blowers to separate the top sheets of the
stack. The Heidelberg feeder was pretty cool: it somewhat
counterintuitively picked up the sheet at the *back* and fed it forward.
Really cool to see a "stream" feeder in operation. When properly
adjusted, performs flawlessly.

Still, it might be possible to borrow some of the paper handling
technology and use it for small printers. For example, instead of
pick and plop vacuum paper handling, the feed rollers could use
vacuum to grab, hold, and eventually release the paper.

That would be kewl.

Having seen miniature engines, metal working machinery, and
automobiles, I suspected that someone might build a miniature offset
press that could be adaptable for home use. There's a 1937 patent:
<http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=fOo-AAAAEBAJ&dq=2099962>
which is not very useful. Google found some vendors in China and
India that sell miniature offset presses. However, their idea of
miniature is about the size of refrigerator. I couldn't find anything
the size of a typical inkjet printer.

Ackshooly, the AB Dick 320 offset duplicator was a table-top model only
slightly larger than the larger laser printers of the early days. I
first learned to print on one of those, using direct paper plates (you
typed and wrote directly on the plate using special ribbons and pencils,
almost like a mimeograph). But the 320, being a dinky "press", used
friction feed (rubber rollers) which of course isn't nearly as good as
vacuum feed.