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Kentucky LowVoltage Installers Screwed Again

  • Thread starter Rocky_T_Squirrel, Esq.
  • Start date
R

Rocky_T_Squirrel, Esq.

Jan 1, 1970
0
As of July 15, 2004, Most if not all Kentucky LowVoltage Installers (ie...
alarm installers) are illegal..
Due to a new (secret) law just passed..
"Way to go Kenucky elected officals."

RTS
 
R

RH.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sounds like more governmental madness to me ! This is what happens when
governments at all levels attempt to do good by setting standards. Licensing
can be good, properly set standards obviously are, but too much control
(something all governements are prone to do) results in foolishness - all in
the interests of protecting the public. And then there are the effects of
self serving union influence on regulation (but I won't go there.....)

Here in Ontario, there are no established standards or licensing for low
voltage work (other than fire alarms). The result is a situation where some
controls could be useful to deal with the very many poorly trained
installers in the field. Larger companies try to exercise some control over
the quality of their installers they use, but that "self regulation" does
little to cut down on the number of poorly installed systems, since most use
unregulated contractors for residential installs. And as long as the money
rolls in, they see little reason to change things. The locksmithing trade
also uses "self regulation" in the absence of any other regulation, but that
only serves to keep new locksmiths out of the business unless they work
under the auspices of a recognized company for a while until they decide to
go it alone.

Frankly, of the two situations, I'd much rather work where it isn't
regulated, even with all the problems that can create. Once the government
decides to step in (if it ever does), I'm gone. It's not worth the bulls*t
that goes along with it.......

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
 
S

Spike

Jan 1, 1970
0
jdh said:
all

I live in a rural area where there is very little regulation. Sometimes it's
nice to not get all the government your taxes pay for.

Bob

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahah, Can I use that?
Ain't that the truth? But if yer warm and happy in a pile of shit, keep yer
mouth shut!
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spike said:
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahah, Can I use that?
Ain't that the truth? But if yer warm and happy in a pile of shit, keep yer
mouth shut!

Someone wake Bob up and tell him even with little regulation he won't get
all or even part of the government his taxes pay for :)
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
jdh said:
Kentucky is very aggressive in protecting the trades people. In Allen
County, for example, you must hire a licensed trades person for any work on
your home or any structures including the shed for your lawnmower. Next step
will probably be that you'll have to hire a licensed landscaper to cut your
grass, and then maybe you won't be permitted to repair your car in your own
driveway. Each person will be permitted to work only at their licensed
trade. Sorry, mom, you can't cook supper, gotta hire a chef.

Bob

Bob, you are correct. In some municipalities, landscapers must be
licensed to work in the area. You can hire someone who is not, but
when they get caught, the fur will surely fly. I don't think the
homeowner would be in as much trouble as the contractor. Of course,
you will know you've been had when they start requiring a permit to do
that landscaping, and they want to do an inspection each week :)!
When that happens, as you know, you also are obligated to hire only
city licensed contractors. In some cases, I can go along with this,
as I've seen some pretty shoddy workmanship out there. But, in many
cases, the licensing issue, and subsequent permit and inspection
process, appears to be more about MONEY than anything else. What is
your thoughts on this?

Al

--
Allan B. Colombo, technical writer
P.O. Box 30076
East Canton, Ohio 44730
USA
Come and visit with me at:
www.securitymission.com
www.tpromo.com
 
A

Al Colombo

Jan 1, 1970
0
RH, I have to agree. Some regulation is good for both dealers and
installers. But, all so often government begins to see the "profit
potential" of regulation. It is then that everyone will pay out the
nose for something that did not have to cost as such. There is
legislation pending all across the country that, if passed as is,
would force all alarm companies to be licensed as an electrical firm.
There would have to be a master electrician on every job if some of
these pending bills were to pass. It's good that the NBFAA and their
state chapters have been working to negate these efforts. Kentucky is
one example of this. I guess you could call it a compromise. State
officials were going to pass some form of regulation and the KBFAA
group had to do something about it. It's truly a shame that there
must be regulation at all. In other words, in a perfect world there
would be no need.

Al



--
Allan B. Colombo, technical writer
P.O. Box 30076
East Canton, Ohio 44730
USA
Come and visit with me at
www.securitymission.com
www.tpromo.com
 
R

RH.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Al, I have no beef with regulations which are carefully thought out, serve a
real purpose, and don't work to the detriment of those people most affected.
Where I object is when regulations are drafted to serve a small group of
self serving individuals (such as those encouraged by union interests such
as needing an electricians license to install low voltage....) or are
drafted simply because politicians have fallen victim to a creeping
governmental power grabbing mentality.

You know the old saying....streetlights are good, they are necessary, and
should be installed where necessary to maintain order. And most reasonable
people wouldn't argue with that premise. However, some politicians are prone
to conclude that if streetlights are "good", then one every 10 feet on the
roads can only be "better"...!!!

If those organizations that propose to support the alarm industry such as
Canasa up here, and whoever down there, wish to earn their keep, they better
start addressing this creeping erosion of our rights as individuals to
pursue lawful and gainful employment free of unnecessary governmental
regulation.

I'll join Canasa only when I see something come out of that organization
other than promotion of an "old boys club" as the standing mentality....

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Alarminex said:
Robert is seeing the effect of a liberal govenment gone wild ........ in the
category of gun control/confiscation, so it's to be expected that he'd rather
not have govenment intervention in the alarm field.

However, as always ........ without some control, there are always those who
would abuse the social contract. We see that effect right here in ASA.
Nevertheless the invitation of even the slightest bit of control, is the
beginning of the slippery slope to buracracy gone wild.

Which is nothing whatsoever like "Girls gone wild"
Jim

Someone wake Jim up and tell him comparing a country's government with this
newsgroup is kinda stupid :)
 
R

Rocky_T_Squirrel, Esq.

Jan 1, 1970
0
This just in, Kentucky will charge $100.00 per year for a certificate and
the testing will be done by a company NOT in Kentucky.. Unknown what the out
of state company will charge to give the test....
RTS
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wow, between this thread and the previous one about Protection with or
without a license, I am wondering what rock most of these people are hiding
under. Every time there is a post concerning licensing, it gets more
attention than a singe women in a lumber camp. You would think, after
reading some of the posts, fhere and in the past when licensing is brought
up, that the industry is full of militia men ready to overthrow the
government. I wonder if those, that are most vocal, are licensed in areas
that licensing is required or are they anti-regulation and are flying under
the radar.(unlicensed themselves) I wonder if those that comment against
licensing are those that operate in an area that does not require licensing
and therefore really don't have a good grasp of the regulatory process. I
wonder if there are those that are operating in an area that the level of
competition is so minute that they are not effected by the unlicensed
contractor. I wonder why people run and hide from regulation instead of
embrassing the process and letting it work for them. I wonder if those that
are afraid of regulation understand that it is made by those in the industry
and not those outside the industry unless they choose to not be involved. I
wonder how many of the posters make politics part of their business or if
they even vote at all. If you are in business, politics needs to part of
that business whether is it city, county, state or federal politics, you
need to be aware of what is effecting your livilyhood from day one. If you
let others decide what effects your business, you will be left behind. Those
that are part of the process will be so far ahead of you that they will be
in full swing by the time you hear it for the first time. A perfect example
is one of the posters refered to the HB in Ky. as a "secret law". There is
no such thing. If anyone has ever been part of the law making process, they
would know that the planning, the drafting, the committees, the hearings,
the readings, the house, the senate and then the governor's office before a
bill becomes law is a long strenuous ordeal and is looked at by many parties
that have an interest, pro or con. Anyone that believes a law was kept
secret is deeply troubled about conspiracy theorys. Elected officals only
vote on issues put in front of them, they don't create them. If some other
entity was there to put something in front of them that adversely effects
your business and you were not there to contest it, you loose!

In Florida, our State Association has a lobbyist in Tallahassee that reveiws
as many as 6000 bills a year that are proposed to the Florida legistature
for any possible verbage that someone may try to get passed that may effect
our industry. In the past four years we have caught a number of issues that
would effect us. We at least are being proactive and not letting others
decide our fate. In Florida, we embrace regulation because it helps us ward
off such things as "having to have a journeyman electrician on site", which
has been a national issue. There is whole host of governmental issues, good
and bad, that have been addressed in Florida which can be verified by others
in this group. And the results have been all for the betterment of the
industry. Is it regulation, yes it is. But, we are the ones controlling it,
which is the key. Just get involved with more than bar stool talk.

As far as the NBFAA gettng involved with the KBFAA to fight this issue, you
would have to prove it to me. The NBFAA has no money to support anything
except the wrong candidate as they did here in Florida. Florida has divorced
ourselves from that bankrupt organization. Their dis-organization will never
see a dime from the near 700 member companies of the AAF.

Bob4Secur
 
P

petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Worthy said:
Wow, between this thread and the previous one about Protection with or
without a license, I am wondering what rock most of these people are hiding
under.

Me i would say under the rock named incompetence....

they dont know shit about regulation (being an electrician before i touched
the wonderfull world of alarm...;-) )i know what it is and i know that
regulation are for the better....IF they are done in conjonction with the
industry....

You have a good point when you say that getting involved will help...

I for once am the vice-president of the biggest alarm technician union in
Quebec and i teach computer and alarm at a school for the construction
business at night ( not all the time about 200 hour by session..)i got
involved and helped change the training the apprentice where receiving (they
were still learning on how to program stuff in a eeprom to program a
panel..while they had no clue how a combuss line was supposed to be
wired...)

I dream of the day that an electrician will come to me on job site and tell
me he envy the job i am doing and that he would love to be able to do the
same....

lets face it, we do a much more technical job then them,we do have some
handy work to do AND we have to think to a lot more possibilty of problem
then electrician...when they come to a house the biggest problem they have
is to put as much plug as needed...they dont even have to think about wire
gauge..its all in the book! in a neet little list...if someone know that
electrical code he can be the king of his trade...Us..there is no book(there
are some regulation but they are so small...) you have to THINK to do a good
job..and only experience can give you that...


what i would love in a regulation is something like the electrician
have...if you have 1.5metter on the wall and no plug..you have to put
one!this would be for us something like: id you ahve a room with a windows
that can be reached from outside you need a contact on the windows and a pir
in the room,the pir must not be aimed at the windows in a way that it can
look outside...(fictual code...)

regulation is what will make our trade a respected one....
 
J

Jackcsg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rocky_T_Squirrel said:
This just in, Kentucky will charge $100.00 per year for a certificate and
the testing will be done by a company NOT in Kentucky.. Unknown what the out
of state company will charge to give the test....
RTS
All I can figure is the Kentucky National Guard uses DMP. Like me, after 22
months of no false alarms, maybe they shared information with the rest of
the State....
I need a Branch office in Louisville....
Rock on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jack
 
R

RH.Campbell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Petem, I'm somewhat confused now. You live and work in Quebec and are
covered by regulation. My understanding is you need a license to install
alarm systems in Quebec. Is this correct?

If it isn't, I've turned a hell of a lot of work away simply because I had
no desire to work across the river in a regulated environment !!

RHC
 
P

petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is a big misconception....
Certification is not regulation...
to be able to work across the river you need to be certified as an alarm
installer..
but the regulation of how a system should be installed is about none
existent..
 
N

Norm Mugford

Jan 1, 1970
0
Excellent post Bob.

Norm Mugford

Bob Worthy said:
Wow, between this thread and the previous one about Protection with or
without a license, I am wondering what rock most of these people are hiding
under. Every time there is a post concerning licensing, it gets more
attention than a singe women in a lumber camp. You would think, after
reading some of the posts, fhere and in the past when licensing is brought
up, that the industry is full of militia men ready to overthrow the
government. I wonder if those, that are most vocal, are licensed in areas
that licensing is required or are they anti-regulation and are flying under
the radar.(unlicensed themselves) I wonder if those that comment against
licensing are those that operate in an area that does not require licensing
and therefore really don't have a good grasp of the regulatory process. I
wonder if there are those that are operating in an area that the level of
competition is so minute that they are not effected by the unlicensed
contractor. I wonder why people run and hide from regulation instead of
embrassing the process and letting it work for them. I wonder if those that
are afraid of regulation understand that it is made by those in the industry
and not those outside the industry unless they choose to not be involved. I
wonder how many of the posters make politics part of their business or if
they even vote at all. If you are in business, politics needs to part of
that business whether is it city, county, state or federal politics, you
need to be aware of what is effecting your livilyhood from day one. If you
let others decide what effects your business, you will be left behind. Those
that are part of the process will be so far ahead of you that they will be
in full swing by the time you hear it for the first time. A perfect example
is one of the posters refered to the HB in Ky. as a "secret law". There is
no such thing. If anyone has ever been part of the law making process, they
would know that the planning, the drafting, the committees, the hearings,
the readings, the house, the senate and then the governor's office before a
bill becomes law is a long strenuous ordeal and is looked at by many parties
that have an interest, pro or con. Anyone that believes a law was kept
secret is deeply troubled about conspiracy theorys. Elected officals only
vote on issues put in front of them, they don't create them. If some other
entity was there to put something in front of them that adversely effects
your business and you were not there to contest it, you loose!

In Florida, our State Association has a lobbyist in Tallahassee that reveiws
as many as 6000 bills a year that are proposed to the Florida legistature
for any possible verbage that someone may try to get passed that may effect
our industry. In the past four years we have caught a number of issues that
would effect us. We at least are being proactive and not letting others
decide our fate. In Florida, we embrace regulation because it helps us ward
off such things as "having to have a journeyman electrician on site", which
has been a national issue. There is whole host of governmental issues, good
and bad, that have been addressed in Florida which can be verified by others
in this group. And the results have been all for the betterment of the
industry. Is it regulation, yes it is. But, we are the ones controlling it,
which is the key. Just get involved with more than bar stool talk.

As far as the NBFAA gettng involved with the KBFAA to fight this issue, you
would have to prove it to me. The NBFAA has no money to support anything
except the wrong candidate as they did here in Florida. Florida has divorced
ourselves from that bankrupt organization. Their dis-organization will never
see a dime from the near 700 member companies of the AAF.

Bob4Secur
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob, the issue of licensing is so misunderstood and maligned that a full
understanding and consensus is difficult.

I know it may seem that way on the surface, however, one only needs to read
instead of assuming or simply listening to the assumption of others.

Further, licensing varies so much
that two people can be saying "A" but neither are talking about the same
thing.

Exactly what I just said. They are like school children copying someone
elses homework.
There's no argument that this industry must be licensed. The problem is for
what, by whom, and under what criteria.

The alarmcos in each area need to decide to take off the gloves and work
together for one specific goal. If the regulations are not working for them,
they simply need to agree that, as an industry, they need to spend the time
to lobby for change, whether it is city, county or state regulation. One
cannot complain about something if they are not willing to invest in getting
it changed.
In speaking with alarmco owners, they generally agree that a licensed for the
business that requires the principals to be background check and skill tested
is reasonable and rational. They also believe that background checks for
employees is also reasonable and rational. Where they take separate paths is
over the skill requirement of their employees. Some believe that their is no
need for government control over the employees competency as they all don't all
need the same skills to do their jobs. A company can argue that if heir etches
are doing prewires, why do they need to know space protection? After all, they
are simply running wires from a diagram. I've heard some complain that because
they install wireless systems, why does a tech need to know electricity and
wiring codes?

Because wireless systems still need some wiring. However if that is a
concern, lobby for a tiered certification policy.
Although they all would love to have "licensed" techs as a sales tool, they
neither want the expense nor time investment it requires.

If the certification is wanted or needed, make the tech achieve the levels
themselves. Use pay scale as an incentive for them to achieve a higher
level.

I will pick this back up, gotta run.

Bob4Secur
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is where many licensing issues get bogged down. Not every state is
fortunate to have an association riding herd over regulation.

I realize that we are fortunate in that respect, but it needs to start
somewhere. This is a 34 year old Association. It has not always been as
strong as it is today. Six years ago, the Association was handed over to a
new Board of Directors. The Association's executive director quit 8 months
earlier, we had a mortgage of $375,00 dollars on a 7,000 square foot
building of which only about a 1000 ft was being used for storage, there was
a little over $2,000 dollars in the bank with over $20,000 dollars in
accounts payable. Our membership had dwindled to about 120 members. We had
exactly 30 days until the next mortgage payment was due and three months
before membership renewal billing could go out and really no way of getting
it out. Since that date, we are now pushing towards 700 member companies to
include every one of the nationals. The building has been sold, and our
training programs are being sought by other states. We have a lobbyist in
Tallahassee and under my term as President, spearheaded the Southeast
Security Alliance made up of 7 states. Our membership does not include those
other states. We are now in the process of searching out a lobbyist for
Washington DC. My point is, where there is a will, there is a way. We
virtually started over with nothing and in six years got to where we are
today. Sounds like a long time but when you figure the first two years were
strictly spent on rebuilding burnt bridges and regaining the memberships
trust, it hasn't been that long.
Take AZ, the concept of skills licensing isn't opposed by all. The opposition
is over the group backing regulation and how that licensing translates to job
skills. There is nothing in the proposed licensing regulation that requires an
alarm tech to understand the difference between a contact and a hair plug.

There is a solution. It is called Tiered Licensing.
However, a skilled alarm technician with years of hardwire installation
experience capable of installing complex alarm systems, cannot be licensed if
they don't know how to compute the resistance of a wire over a given distance
with 3 splices in a specific gauge, exposed to a particular temperature. So
whenever the term "electrical licensing" is mentioned, some envision that very
scenario.

Lobby for change. Tiered Licensing. Everyone gets what they want and
everyone goes home happy.
That, is the unfortunate reality. It's always someone else's problem, or it
will always be handled by someone else. I've said it many times, you can count
the number of alarmcos that show up for regulatory meetings on your hand, but
need a calculator to add up the number of alarmcos at an ADI Expo.

Serve food and give away free screwdrivers with jellybeans. Some vendor will
sponsor the meeting to get an audiance.
In all fairness, there have been proposals that have sprung up out of the blue.
True, there are ample opportunities to be involved before that proposal
becomes law, but this is where many sit back, waiting for others to deal with
it.

Apathy


Also, some proposals remain within the closed knit community of the
backers, disguised as something else.

Political tricks to ward off opposition.
Unfortunately, that's not the normal case. Many simply look at the title and
decide it doesn't impact them.

Most don't read the system manuals let alone a proposed bill.

However, in that proposal may can be a
provision that will impact another industry.

It is refered to as a "train". They will attach things to a bill that has
little to no opposition. The bill doesn't have to be related at all. Again,
it is a political trick. The sponsor of a non controversial bill must agree
to let a bill, that may be in jeopardy, attach itself to the safe bill. It
is a favor and there will be the promise of a return. They need to be
careful not to allow to many trains because it can kill a bill.

The sad fact remains,
there are many laws that are passed and have to be revised because of it's
impact on trades not intended to be covered by the law.

It is happening right now because of a revision in the Florida Building
Code. Unfortunately, no gets on the technical advisory committee because of
appointments. We are working on that as we speak. The problem right now,
through someones infinite wisdom, one cannot install an access control
system in a building that has been listed as a building with an "assembly
occupancy". It will get fixed, but right now permits are being declined.

Now probably a good time to also mention the often layman's misinterpretation
of laws. Not every law is enforced exactly as written, applicable as written
because of superseding regulations, or mean what people think they mean. In
AZ, many city laws require that a company that provides monitoring where the
police are called for response, MUST BE LICENSED! Now on the surface, that
seems pretty cut and dry, but under the surface, the city considers a
registered company (out of state with no direct presence in this state and
nothing more than letting the city know who you are, how to contact you, etc,
on a simple form) as a licensed company even though they don't have an actual
license. It's not only the words but the intent and not only the intent but
the words. Something for attorneys to earn their fees.

No attorneys! They interpete things wrong as well. Better a committee
representing the industry meet with powers to be and get it changed. That is
where we started. If the present government won't listen, the industry needs
to lobby to get in new city government. That is what happened in Palm Beach.
Get a copy of the Palm Beach County Ordinance and see what is printed on the
cover. Written by the County of Palm Beach and the Alarm Association of
Florida. This happened back in that first two years we were rebuilding and
it was through a committee from the industry.
Position papers are often mistaken as grass roots, in the trench support. Bob,
understand that Florida is the complete exception, not the rule. Although I
wish every alarm association mirrored yours, not going to happen so long as
responsibility and accountability is for the other guy.

United we stand, divided we fall. How old is that and what don't they
understand?
Lastly, the anti-any regulation crowd keeps thinking they are winning because
of those few laws they got pushed back, not realizing that the next variation
will blow them over and be twice as bad as the first. I'm sure you've seen
proposals that are designed not for passage but to feel out the opposition and
to get them to tip their hand. If a regulation is proposed and the anti
regulation crowd goes through their laundry list of cost, inconveniences, or
necessity, guarantee the next time the cost issue will be addressed, counter
arguments to inconveniences will be addressed, and why it's necessary will be
addressed. Kinda leaves them naked and passage assured.

They can carry a big stick, but, the industry is over 100 years old. Many of
the old timers have been around a long time. What is the life expectentcy of
an elected offical? Don't give up, don't take "no" for an answer, it is not
an option. They have to listen to you. You, your family, and colleuges (sp)
are voters. Conduct yourself professionally with facts, and don't go away.
Meet with everyone and don't come off as self-serving. Does it take time, of
course it does, but unemployement is not in my future plans and shouldn't be
in anyone elses either.

You and I are on the same page, Rob and I hope our conversations raise some
"how to" questions from others that want to protect their livlihood from
what they fear and strive for regulation that is fair and works for
everyones benefit. It can be done.

Bob4Secur
-
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L. Bass said:
Hi Bob,

I checked and you are right about the matter of out-of-state firms
monitoring Florida premises. They do need a license to monitor here.
Thanks for the correction.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! You're a laugh a minute
there "Roberta"... Keep 'em comin'!!

Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Group Moderator said:
Subject: Re: Kentucky LowVoltage Installers Screwed Again
From: "Frank Olson" [email protected]
Date: 8/18/2004 6:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <D8RUc.144246$gE.138951@pd7tw3no>





Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! You're a laugh a minute
there "Roberta"... Keep 'em comin'!!

Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com


Mike Said:
Good Frankie Bay no take your bone and lay down - dog

Mike!!! When's the last tyme you used yure spell checkure??

Mike, Sr.
999 Years in the trade

And going....
 

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