Juicing crop feedstock for ethanol

[Curbie]

I'm studying the process of harvesting and juicing the stalks of
Jerusalem artichokes and leaving (most) of the tubers in the ground
for re-growth (the following season).

The literature I've read is pretty vague on this point; the patent
(4400469) describes a hammer mill and a (undefined) press, although
the hammer mill is a pretty easy home-scale DIY device, it's really
just a device to pulverize and the lack of detail on this undefined
press is troubling.

I've been tinkering with the idea of slight modifications to a hammer
mill by putting small juice holes on the bottom and the pulp exit mesh
on the lower part of one side, just above a small juice "Dam".

I've looked at other ways, "roller press", "masticating juicer",
"centrifugal juicer", and "hammer mill" type designs, all have
interesting points for both ease of DIY construction and
efficient juicing.

I been chasing my tail for a while on this and was hoping some
feedback would help me sort this out.

Thanks,

Curbie

 

[Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds]

<q23cs5tmtmq6d1gsmbv672onnn9fi15id9@4ax.
com>,

I'm studying the process of harvesting and juicing the stalks of
Jerusalem artichokes and leaving (most) of the tubers in the ground
for re-growth (the following season).

The literature I've read is pretty vague on this point; the patent
(4400469) describes a hammer mill and a (undefined) press, although
the hammer mill is a pretty easy home-scale DIY device, it's really
just a device to pulverize and the lack of detail on this undefined
press is troubling.

I've been tinkering with the idea of slight modifications to a hammer
mill by putting small juice holes on the bottom and the pulp exit mesh
on the lower part of one side, just above a small juice "Dam".

I've looked at other ways, "roller press", "masticating juicer",
"centrifugal juicer", and "hammer mill" type designs, all have
interesting points for both ease of DIY construction and
efficient juicing.

I been chasing my tail for a while on this and was hoping some
feedback would help me sort this out.

Thanks,

Curbie

I might try an old cement truck mixer
with a slight faster speed and lots of
heavey ball bearings of different sizes.

 

[Curbie]

Jim,

You have a lot of experience with DIY design and construction, could
you cast an eye on these two designs and give me any feedback you
think appropriate, also which one you like best, or if you feel
something would be better.

The notion is to feed one of the them long straight stalks in
continuous fashion to separate the juice which I want, from the pulp
which gets composted. Neither image is complete and I'll add some
design notes for each.

Design notes:
Basically the bottom 1/3 30gallon drum and its lid (turned on the
horizontal)
Horizontal shaft (5-7 hp)
Standard hammer assembly 3 plates 3" apart (not shown)
2" drive pulley, 8" driven pulley, 3600 RPM engine, 225 RPM hammer
assembly.
Basically the stalks get feed into a chute (not shown) in the top to
the hammers which pulverize them until the pulp is fine enough to exit
the holes in the side, the small holes at the bottom of the drum is
where the juice exits.
http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/Curbie_Pics/HammerMillH01.jpg

Design notes:
Basically the bottom 1/3 30gallon drum (left vertical)
Vertical shaft (5-7 hp)
The cutter and basket both turn at the same RPM and the basket has
holes (not shown) in it to spin out the juice after the stalk is cut
up.
2" drive pulley, 3" driven pulley, 3600 RPM engine, 1600 RPM
cutter/basket assembly.
Basically the stalks get feed into a chute (not shown) in the top to
the cutter which pulverize them, the pulp is spun up the basket by
centrifugal force what the juice is spun through holes in the basket
(not shown) and the pulp exits and chute (not shown) at the top of the
basket at one side.
http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/Curbie_Pics/Juicer.jpg

I think the first idea would be simpler to build, the second would
juice better, although I'm concerned about building and balancing the
basket.

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Hi Mal,

How are you envisioning the pulp exiting cement mixer once it's
juiced?

I'm not sure I'm following your thought.

Curbie

 

[Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds]

<eb1ds512ds9pbgjb2tieoou2dv6il8bitg@4ax.
com>,

Hi Mal,

How are you envisioning the pulp exiting cement mixer once it's
juiced?

I'm not sure I'm following your thought.

Curbie

I'm just spitballing but you could cut a
hatch into the mixer or you could just
pump it out. Or to get really creative
you could use a hydraulic lift to lift
up the fat end.

 

[Curbie]

Hi Jim,

I was hoping you'd weigh in on this thread, between you and z you've
sparked another design idea (more that in a bit).

I did a lot car racing as a kid (30 years) and for drag cars I'd
replace the sheet and frame from the wheel-wells back, I had the shop
for it then (not now) so although my experience is old (like me) I
have more that a little. I'm not looking to redo a metal-shop (other
than a small drill-press and welder) but rather cad the design and
farm out to have parts cuts and I may do the final welding.

I pulled my garbage-disposer last night to see how it works the design
seems to require liquid to cool the unit and wash away the debris. I
suppose I could re-circulate the juice as liquid, but as far as using
a commercial garbage-disposer I don't think it has anywhere near the
HP or capacity for an acre of 12' fibrous stalks, but I might play
with the design idea some more if it seems better than one of the
other designs.

On the hammer mill design, do you think a gasket cut from an
inner-tube would solve the leak issue??? The hammer mill design has
appeal from a DIY stand-point, but my concerns with that design are 1)
I remember feeding my mother's troy-built mulcher wet yard-waste and
it really bogged-down and gummed-up the machine, it worked, but was a
lot more effort for both machine and operator, and 2) I'm concerned I
won't get the best separation (the amount of juice exiting with the
pulp.

The design idea sparked by you and z.
Basically, the stalks are feed in from the right are juiced between
the upper and lower sets of rollers (set much closer together) where
the juice drop down and pressed stalks exit through the rolls left.
Both upper and lower rollers rotate in opposite directions and server
to both feed and press the stalks. Obviously none of the designs are
complete or accurate, and won't be until I can focus in on one.
http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/Curbie_Pics/Roller.jpg

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Mal,

Spit-balling was exactly what I was looking for; at this point I can't
follow where you're going this, I need to feed an acre of 12' stalks
into a device and have the juice exit in one place and the stalk pulp
in another, I can follow how the stalks would be juiced with this
idea, and how the juice could exit the mixer through small holes, but
the problem I see is with feeding and the pulp.

I suppose the pulp would eventual fill the mixer and spill out the
front, but feed an acre of 12' stalks seems like a slow process.

Am I misinterpreting your idea???

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

z,

How've you been?

Yours and Jim's posts sparked another design, which I laid out in
Jim's post, thanks for the feedback. A very nice little DIY apple
juicer.

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

z,

One other thing I forgot to ask you, IIRC you posted about some
special screen your hydro system uses to prevent debris from entering
your feed water, basically separating water from debris. Do you think
that special screen might be of any value in my juicing context???

Thanks,

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Z,

I think you probably want to have the stock mash in with the juice during your fermenting though don't you?

For wine and other feedstocks you're correct, one of the problems with
ethanol is the processing varies with each type of feedstock, with
Jerusalem Artichokes in the process I'm following (and there are other
ways for JA), not so, I'm just collecting and processing the sugars in
the stalks, not the starches in the tubers which would be advantageous
to process with the tuber pulp.

I'm knowingly traded some ethanol potential with this way in favor of
reduced feedstock processing and handling, if I can process the sugars
in the stalks (low hanging fruit) I can always go after the tubers
later to increase yields or leave all or some of them in the ground to
start next year's crop, JA is kind of a weed and very hardy.

If you or anyone is interested here the patent I'm working from.
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=Mr83AAAAEBAJ&dq=4400469

Coanda screen, that's the one I was thinking of.

Thanks,

Curbie

 

[Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds]

<krres5tqn5aoeg0o11730h8gifjam0sji9@4ax.
com>,

Mal,

Spit-balling was exactly what I was looking for; at this point I can't
follow where you're going this, I need to feed an acre of 12' stalks
into a device and have the juice exit in one place and the stalk pulp
in another, I can follow how the stalks would be juiced with this
idea, and how the juice could exit the mixer through small holes, but
the problem I see is with feeding and the pulp.

I suppose the pulp would eventual fill the mixer and spill out the
front, but feed an acre of 12' stalks seems like a slow process.

Am I misinterpreting your idea???

Curbie

Nope, you pretty much have it.

Seems to me that any device that works
to your spec is going to costly or
complex or involve lots of labor.

I believe that I might concentrate on a
cheaper/simpler batch process and plant
my crop so that it ripens every week or
so. Is there any advantage to processing
your crop in one fell swoop. That's got
to add a level of cost (and as I
previously stated complexity) that seems
(to me) unnecessary.

 

[Curbie]

Mal,

Seems to me that any device that works to your spec is going to costly
or complex or involve lots of labor.

In the sub-tread with Jim, we're looking at two potential designs
(hammer mill and roller), both of which of which meet my spec, I
remember seeing inexpensive cement mixers at Harbor Freight 220.00 on
sale from 300.00. I would think the hammer mill may be in that range,
not yet sure about the roller mill.

I believe that I might concentrate on a cheaper/simpler batch process
and plant my crop so that it ripens every week or so. Is there any
advantage to processing your crop in one fell swoop.

Harvesting and processing Jerusalem Artichokes into ethanol is pretty
time sensitive, I don't think a batch vs. continuous press would be
the best trade-off, even if a continuous device cost 50% more.

Good spit-ball, but I don't think it's right for me.

Thanks, for your time anyway.

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Version two, cheaper and the benefit of mastication between the center
and rear roller, also there seems like the additional benefit of
adjusting the top bearings horizontally to simultaneously change the
gaps (pressures) between the center and both front and rear rollers,
one gap would narrow increasing the pressure, while simultaneously
increasing the other gap.

The notion being that the wider gap would be use for feeding the
feedstock between the front and center rollers, and the squished
output from the front would be further juiced between the narrower gap
between the center and rear roller.

I'm thinking that a grid of small holes drilled around each roller
would aid in both feeding and some mastication due to the opposing
directions and the center and rear roller

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/Curbie_Pics/RollerJuicer02.jpg

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Jim,

Calender rolls, I've only heard that term use with paper rolls (huge),
these rolls are currently designed at 4" Diameter x 12" Long, are we
thinking in the same scale? The juicing is time sensitive, I'll have
a 5-7 day window (before flowering) to juice 1 acre of stalks so I
feel I'll be better off using a continuous hammer-mill and losing some
juice than any slower batch type process.

Finding a way to both continuously juice AND juice as completely as
possible is my goal, so far I think the roller type will juice better,
but the hammer-mill has DIY appeal and could be used with tubers also.
I don't know, maybe a hammer-mill and a separate pulp wringer.

Thanks, I'm thinking this juicing idea needs more reseach.

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Jim,

Good advise, as usual.

That's why I've suggested small-scale batch prototypes before you
commit to building an expensive continuous processor. In a batch
process you can isolate the various steps to measure their
performance and then optimize each step separately.

I was thinking there was already a lot of testing done on small-scale
batch prototypes; vegetable juicers for home made beverage juice. So I
was hoping to piggy-back on their work and went to the juicer review
sites for info and google patents for designs.

Perhaps you could obtain a small supply of stalks and refrigerate
them while you experiment.

I was thinking I could plant a small area, JA are kind like a weed and
it will take a few years to get settled in a new home anyway, so it
seems like I can start a small patch for testing and by the time I'm
ready to starting process testing, then production testing, and
eventually ramp-up for production, they will have grown in to fill the
needs.

How similar are rhubarb or celery?

They are part of the sunflower family with many small flowers per
stalk, instead of one big one.

I went to a BBQ at a friends house today and was talking with him
about my plans and options and told him about the different type of
beverage juicers and the roller juicer idea I got from you and z, also
how well a sheet-metal roller had "juiced" a finger-tip as a kid, and
he told me a story of taking his family to a Sugar-Cain plantation
while on vacation, they we're using a three roller press similar to my
design as he described it. I will search the web tomorrow to see if I
can the some pictures.

Curbie

 

[Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds]

<8i4hs55jl2t1t9umfq2qrts5irnm84juh3@4ax.
com>,

Version two, cheaper and the benefit of mastication between the center
and rear roller, also there seems like the additional benefit of
adjusting the top bearings horizontally to simultaneously change the
gaps (pressures) between the center and both front and rear rollers,
one gap would narrow increasing the pressure, while simultaneously
increasing the other gap.

The notion being that the wider gap would be use for feeding the
feedstock between the front and center rollers, and the squished
output from the front would be further juiced between the narrower gap
between the center and rear roller.

I'm thinking that a grid of small holes drilled around each roller
would aid in both feeding and some mastication due to the opposing
directions and the center and rear roller

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz177/Curbie_Pics/RollerJuicer02.jpg

Curbie

I couldn't tell you why, but I have a
feeling that if you used tapered
calander rollers you might see an
increase in efficiency

 

[Curbie]

Hi Morris,

I started a search on DIY parabolic troughs when we last talked and
this guy seems far above the rest, he considered whether condition and
different purposes in his design which seems fairly complete.

You ever seen this guy's stuff before???

Web-site
http://wims.unice.fr/xiao/solar/diy-en.pdf

DIY construction manual
http://wims.unice.fr/xiao/solar/diy.html

His support math and design concept
http://wims.unice.fr/xiao/solar/collector.pdf

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

Mal,

I couldn't tell you why, but I have a feeling that if you used tapered
calander rollers you might see an increase in efficiency

This video (25 seconds):

.... shows the spiral grooves in the rollers, which I believe acts
functionally like a tapered roller (wider gap, reduced pressure), but
most videos show the operators avoiding them opting to fold, twist, or
stack the feedstock in subsequent passes using the smooth part of the
roller instead.

Tapered rollers seem like a good idea, but it concerns me that the
operators that do this daily don't seem to use that option much.

These are the two videos I found that use the single pass three roller
design I'm thinking about on a much smaller scale.

(32 seconds)

(140 seconds)

It seems safety was not a heavy consideration.

Curbie

 

[Curbie]

http://wims.unice.fr/~xiao/gallery/index.html

Morris,

They seem like fairly straight forward images with a program like "Art
of Illusion", but interesting never-less.

I found his design concept paper sound and had been planning an
outline to test his design, do you think his design is the best
starting point???

Curbie

 

[Schweik]

Well after watching maybe 100 videos this morning I choose these two
to illustrate the process I'm interested in.

This video is represents most small presses shown, a two roller press
that requires multiple passes, in all the videos on this type (two
roller) press, the press has been adjusted and the operator re-feeds
the cane though the press manually, sometimes folding the cane in
half, or twisting it, or stacking it with other cane to increase its
volume in order to press it further. This is NOT the type of operation
I had in mind. (25 seconds)

This is one of two presses I found of the three roller type, and they
are single pass machines the closely resembles my three roller design
at a much larger scale. (32 seconds)

Most all the rollers are smooth, except for the spiral grooves which
aren't used in most videos, but in the few videos they are, are used
in the first pass to squish the cane down for subsequent passes in the
smooth section.

I captured the three roller videos to study the gearing and feed rate,
all in all a pretty productive search.

Thanks for you time, ideas, and help.

Curbie

Out of curiosity, have you investigated sugar mills as they would
appear to do exactly what you want - separate the juice from the
chaff, so to speak. Given that they have been developed of hundreds of
years it might be that they have already solved your problems.

Cheers,

Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildorcom)