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Is this the future?

Discussion in 'Hobby Electronics' started by bristan, Nov 24, 2011.

  1. bristan

    bristan Guest

    Last Saturday was very hot and at about 6.30 pm a series of short blackouts
    occurred at my home in Wollondilly shire on the outskirts of Sydney. I
    happened to have a power meter connected at the time and watched as the
    voltage dropped from around 230 slowly to 208 at which level the power went
    off for a couple of seconds then restarted. The voltage went back to 230 or
    so then the process repeated . This went on for about half an hour. I
    switched off what I could but it is a pain having to reset all the clocks,
    redate the phone etc. The fridges weren't, to happy about it either. Non
    peak times the voltage goes up around 250
    Maybe we are going to have to have a UPS set up in our homes with all the
    changes in the electricity arrangements!
     
  2. Selective blackouts are the normal response to overloading like that.

    Everyone cranks up their aircons at the same time, grid can't keep up,
    so it bombs a segment.
    It comes back online after awhile, assuming the dickhead users would
    have turned off a few things, and the process starts over again.

    When there is more load than you can supply, the only option is to cut
    power.
    This is a no-excuse cheap-arse way to make an appliance. Any way to
    save a cent.
    There are control boxes that sense brown or blackouts, and forcibly
    keep the fridge off for some time before trying again. If you power up
    an the wrong moment in the gas transition phase, it can damage the fridge.
    Depends where you are. I'm in the thick of Sydney, so the likelyhood
    of power issues is less, but it's a growing problem.

    Adelaide has this issue, and mainly because aircons have put a very
    short high load on the grid. To fix it, you need additional power
    generation plants to keep up to the demand.
    They have more social problem with power. Population has been really
    slow to grow, or stable, so new base power stations are out of the question.

    Problem with catering for peak demand is, fourfold:

    Peak power generation is expensive, because power needs to be ramped
    up and down rapidly, coal (cheap) can't be used.
    Peak power, because of its very intermittent usage, as well as being
    able to ramp power up and down rapidly, to have to be able to turn it
    off too. This leaves only a few options as far as generation goes.
    Of all those options left, all are frightfully expensive, AND are not
    well suited to huge amounts of power - we're not talking a few
    households here, it's an entire city, so solar and wind is out.

    So you could either resolve all those issues, or, you can tell your
    idiot users to not use their aircons all at the same bloody time.

    Which do you think is easier? :)
     
  3. Really? Have you tried to do pricing on that?
    Lighting accounts for a small portion of power usage, that's why isn't
    the problem. Why do you think the government's incandescent ban was such
    a screwup? Not only would it not make a significant different, it will
    cost end users more.
    They already do that now.
    Again, some do that now, not only controlling the time of day of the
    runtime, the duration as well to maximise work with least energy.
    There would be a HUGE liability issue if that was done. But
    refrigeration isn't the problem either. It disappears into the base
    load, so it not a peak issue.
    This is already done with large systems to save power, but it has
    nothing to do with peak intervals, it's only to save money to the
    company running the fridges. Again, its use averages out to continuous
    over 24 hours (along with everyone else) so there is no peak/off peak usage.
    Are *YOU* going to be the one who tells people when they can and can't
    cook dinner?
    So now your telling people not only WHEN to cook, but HOW to cook?

    As the saying goes: Good luck with that. :)
     
  4. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Kinda hit the wallet a bit.
    12V 445AmpHr costs ~$1,200 recently.
     
  5. Less consumers = less demand. Easy.
     
  6. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Shit happens. Some people need power available at certain times, so hey
    have to take precautionary measures.
    It is about the only alternative. There are others, but just as expensive.
     
  7. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Has SFA to do with it.
     
  8. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Oh, I thought that was what they did do. <vbg>
     
  9. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Maybe. All the current/past increases have nothing to do with it either.
    all due to mismanagement by state governments of both persuasions.
     
  10. Only when you sign up for a Smart Meter deal that changes the tariff
    over different times of day.
    Basically, they charge cheap overnight, and gouge you during the day.

    Sounds good until you realise that cooking on your electric stove is
    only really feasible when you're awake - during the day.
    But you can "fix" that with gas - and expect that first installation
    fee to dig up the ground to cost you a mint.
    And there's the washing - but you can stay up and do that - who needs
    sleep anyway.
    And of course, expect to be sweating during your sleep time, in the
    middle of the fucking day, now that you've shifted your hours to suit THEM.
    And only a minor point that your boss wants you there 9-5.
    Probably just as well you're saving $10 a year now that you don't have
    a job anymore...

    Reliability is the LEAST of your worries.
     
  11. Saturable reactor transformers ( Stabilac ) have been around for years.
    Virtually every lab I ever worked in in any industrial plant had one in
    the '50s - '70s, just to keep the lab supply happy when the industrial
    sections put huge demands on the mains.

    Big lumps of iron and copper, but simple and almost never fail.
     
  12. terryc

    terryc Guest

    I'll give you a heads up, NO power sytation has every been buiklt in
    australia with out some back room assurity. This time is no different.
    bottom line is no states want more new power stations as that would
    reduce the price they can get for their old clunkers when they finally
    get around to selling them off.
    You must have had the blinkers on all your life to not realise this sort
    of deal with independents/minor parties has been part of the Australian
    political landscape since its inception. Your last sentence really
    shoots yourself in the foot.
     
  13. terryc

    terryc Guest

    I'll let you in on a secret, no one offers that fantasy product.
    Read the fine print, they are selling you what you signed up for.
     
  14. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Two parts of installation;
    1) gas main to house (optional as you can install with lpg cyclinders)
    2) house installation; from main/lpg cylinders to outlets.

    Just order your appliances* for LPg Vs Natgas.

    It is veryeasy to run gas stove top cooking off a pair of 9kg lpg
    cyclinders.

    It is stuff like LPG heaters during a cold winter that will have you
    filling a cylinder or two as regular as your vehicle fuel tank. for
    convenience, you can get the larger delivery cylinders, but pay bottle
    rental.
    Timer to start? peg out in the morning.

    * My electric oven comes with a start and stop timer, so provided I
    don't want a baked dinner**, it could be set to start/stop cooking in
    the gheap rate hours.


    ** I suppose the cheaper way to shift to gas might be to spend a few
    thousand on one of ese fancy gas BBQs for he deck <VBG>
     
  15. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Nope, that would incurr a "continuous supply fee" on top of that.
     
  16. Cheaper in the long run to take from the gas mains.
    If you're not going to use gas on a regular basis, or heavily, then
    the tanks will probably be the cheaper way out.
    Here I have to ask if you *WOULD* do it, not if you *COULD* do it.

    There's a difference. :)
     
  17. terryc

    terryc Guest

    Shrug, it is a totally useless poltician that just does what voters want.
     
  18. terryc

    terryc Guest

    I've never been able to get the figures to supports that.
    $19/9kg refill + fuel for car,
    $100 pa per cylinder for rental of large homedelivered cylinders and the
    fuel was the same ($100/45kg).
    $100 pa for the mains service fee and noway of working out the $ of the
    gas delivered.
     
  19. JW

    JW Guest

    Redundant.
     
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