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Is there any way to fix transistor voltage drop?

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Can you use a zener diode and a cap on the base to turn a transistor all the way on really fast? Seem to me that this is a pretty simple bjt drive.

No
 
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supak111

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Sorry don't quite understand what you mean by this:
  1. The low output may be insufficient to turn off the transistor (and it is low when active). Can you use a PNP transistor between the +ve supply and the load instead of an NPN transistor in the ground lead of the load?

So you don't see any problems me using this up to 20v if I just remove or burn out the LEDs right?

As for the ambient light it isn't a problem, my circuit is in a box with a small hole on it, and the LED light that provides the light will be very close to the hole so mainly only light from the LED will be on my circuit.
 

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To expand on that a little more, the problem is that the zener isn't a device that suddenly starts to conduct, it is a device that starts to conduct when a certain voltage is across it. All this change does is to change the voltage level at which the transistor switches.

If you were to replace the zener with a sidac or a diac, you would get the response you desire. However the problem is that these devices have a larger operating voltage than is desirable for a circuit such as this one.

If you compare the voltage vs current behaviour of a zener:

250px-V-a_characteristic_Zener_diode.svg.png


It's actually the lower left quadrant that you're interested in here (not that it actually matters...)

with that of a diac:

220px-Kennlinie_DIAC.svg.png


or a sidac:

220px-Diacgraph.png


You will notice that the zener diode is a continuous function that behaves in a nice mathematical way, having no discontinuities, and exhibiting only a single value of current for any voltage.

The other devices have a more complex behaviour. You will note that they have, over a significant range of operation, two possible values of current for a given voltage. This corresponds to a "triggered" and an "untriggered" state.

Unfortunately there are factors which make these devices unsuitable, one of which being the voltage at which they operate. There is another device with similar behaviour (the Unijunction transistor (UJT) or Programmable unijunction transistor (PUT)). Incidentally these devices are quite different even though wikipedia has the same page for both! These have behaviours that are similar to the above devices:

220px-UJT_caratteristica.png


You might think this looks very different until you realise that the axies have been swapped over. The PUT has the advantage over the UJT in that the place where Vp occurs can be adjusted using external components. It should be possible to use a PUT to do what you want, but I'm no expert in these devices. (Perhaps someone even older than me can help :D)

UJT's and PUT's are pretty rarely used these days.
 

(*steve*)

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Sorry don't quite understand what you mean by this:
  1. The low output may be insufficient to turn off the transistor (and it is low when active). Can you use a PNP transistor between the +ve supply and the load instead of an NPN transistor in the ground lead of the load?

The output of the comparator may not be pulled low enough to get an output voltage that would turn an NPN transistor off completely. This would result in the "DEVICES" not being switched off, or not switched off completely.

An alternative is to move the transistor from the bottom (as you have it where the NPN transistor is connected between the "DEVICE" and ground) to the top (where the transistor is connected between the +ve supply and the "DEVICE"

Because I (still) don't know anything about the "DEVICE"'s, I have to ask you if this is possible. If you would just tell me what they were I could actually advise.

In addition, if I knew what your supply rail was I might be able to recommend using a mosfet, something I can't currently do because I am lacking information.
So you don't see any problems me using this up to 20v if I just remove or burn out the LEDs right?

Well, yes, I still see problems, but removing the LEDs would solve one fairly small one.

The main issues are:
  1. You are now stuck with a configuration that may be the opposite of what you require. Of course that also depends on the answers to the question about what the "DEVICES" are, what your power supply voltage is (is it 20V?), and whether the "DEVICE"'s can be connected to the power supply in a slightly different manner.
  2. The circuit has no Hysteresis.

(Essentially the power to the "DEVICE"'s is a problem if they are always hard-wired to positive by virtue of the power supply design etc.)

As for the ambient light it isn't a problem, my circuit is in a box with a small hole on it, and the LED light that provides the light will be very close to the hole so mainly only light from the LED will be on my circuit.

But you'll still test it and give me the results just so we can see how much hysteresis is required, right?
 

KrisBlueNZ

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You could try this simple circuit:

270723.001.gif

Q1 is an NPN phototransistor which conducts through its collector-emitter path when exposed to light around the red and infra-red areas of the spectrum. Phototransistors are available with and without a base lead. If a base lead is present, RB should be used; if not, RB is not required. A suitable phototransistor is http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SFH 310-2/3/475-1443-ND/1228089. This one does not have a base lead.

When Q1 conducts, it pulls Q2's gate voltage down towards 0V. When this voltage goes below Q2's gate threshold voltage (which is typically few volts), Q2 starts to turn OFF, and its drain voltage increases. This causes Q3 to conduct, energising the load that is connected between Q3's drain and the positive supply rail.

When Q3 conducts and energises the load, its drain voltage drops close to 0V, and RF now helps to pull Q2's gate voltage down. This implements the circuit's hysteresis, or deadband, because in this state, Q1's collector current must now drop further, before Q2 will start to turn ON again. So the light level at which the circuit will turn OFF is lower than the threshold at which it will turn ON.

The values given for R2 and R3 will be fine, but R1 and RF may need adjustment. Unfortunately, they interfere with each other to some extent, but R1 generally affects the circuit's light sensitivity (increase R1 to increase its sensitivity, i.e. to make it trigger at a lower light level) and RF affects the hysteresis deadband (decrease RF to make the deadband wider if there is uncertainty and wittering around the threshold, and increase RF to make the deadband narrower if the circuit does not turn OFF immediately when the light source is removed).

The circuit can't be used at 24V because the MOSFET gate insulation layers could be damaged by overvoltage. Zeners could be added to protect them, but thresholds would change as well, so I've specified it as 12V only.
 

hevans1944

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... The PUT has the advantage over the UJT in that the place where Vp occurs can be adjusted using external components. It should be possible to use a PUT to do what you want, but I'm no expert in these devices. (Perhaps someone even older than me can help :D)

UJT's and PUT's are pretty rarely used these days.

IIRC, I first used a UJT sometime in the late 1950s to build a light dimmer using inverse-parallel connected SCRs. I pretty much quit using UJTs and PUTs when the NE555 and TTL monostable multivibrators became available for timing functions.

I really liked the simplicity of the UJT. It sort of reminded me of a neon lamp relaxation oscillator, which became all the rage in my squadron when I built a few with multiple lamps that flashed on in a repetitive or random sequence, depending on the circuit. You hardly ever see small-bulb (NE51 or NE2)) neon lamps used anymore, except maybe for line-operated power-on indicators. More than you ever wanted to know about small neon lamps, and relaxation oscillators you can build with them, is contained in a "Nuts and Volts" article by Forrest M. Mims published in December 1974. View it as a PDF file here.

Sometime in the early 1960s I built an amateur radio CW transmitter that used a three-terminal neon lamp to shunt to ground (through a small capacitor) the antenna connection to the receiver when the key was down (closed). The relatively low oscillator grid-bias keying signal was used to trigger the neon lamp on. This allowed the transmitter and receiver to share the same antenna without the bother of throwing a switch to select between transmit and receive, which was the normal practice then. I don't remember the neon lamp part number, but that neat circuit allowed full break-in (QSK) keying. I could hear the other guy on my receiver (along with any interference or QRM from other stations) between code elements while I was sending. This is no big deal today because most Ham radio transcievers feature QSK for CW and VOX for voice. Back then, it was so novel that most of my CW contacts couldn't take advantage of it: they had to "throw their switch" between transmitting and receiving, just like the mic button on a CB rig does. If I transmitted "QSK?" the most likely response was "Huh? What is that?".

Unlike the UJT and PUT, which are becoming hard to find, NE51 and NE2 lamps are still readily available. I would not suggest they are appropriate for the OP's circuit because too high a voltage required, and the currents are too small.
 

(*steve*)

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I really like Kris' circuit. It is essentially the same as the Schmitt trigger I suggested, but with the ability to switch a load on its own.

It's a simpler and elegant solution. You *might* even be able to get away with using the LDR in place of the phototransistor.

But still, we are waiting on a number of pieces of information from the supak111, all of which have bearing on the viability of any of the designs.

Oh, and hevans1944, I purchased a few PUTs a while ago (2N6027G) just to play with them because I never got the chance to and they were being (almost) thrown out. I really need to go and play with them, even if I never use them for anything. Oh, and tunnel diodes too. I want to play with them.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Thanks Steve.

I also have never used a PUT. I think I objected to the "Programmable" in the name. I thought, "A three-terminal device? That's not programmable! If that's your definition of programmable, you might as well call a transistor a 'programmable-gain transistor'!"

And hevans1944, you've been posting some great advice here! Did you introduce yourself? Do we know your first name?
 

CDRIVE

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Let's not loose sight of simplicity here. Electromechanical Relays are natural Schmitt Triggers in that they have inherent hysteresis. Their pull-in voltage/current is always higher than their dropout voltage/current.

Chris
 

hevans1944

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I've been more or less lurking here waiting for more information on what the "DEVICES" are. It appears that they present two terminals with 12 to 24 volts DC, available from "something" whenever an LED on the DEVICE (or somewhere else) illuminates. Or perhaps the voltage is always there. When the LED lights up we need to "short" those two terminals together, whereupon something happens in the DEVICE about a quarter second later, perhaps extinguishing the LED that got the ball rolling. After that, who knows? Does the 12 to 24 V DC source go away after the terminals are shorted? How much current is sourced from the two (shorted) terminals while the LED is on?

While working in the 1960s and 1970s as an electronics technician at a local research institute, way before I eventually graduated with a BEE degree, an electrical engineer there sort of took me under his wing and mentored me. Karl was of old German descent and did not come from a wealthy family, so he was always looking for the cheapest and simpleist way to get things done. He had managed to accumulate a bit of wealth, purchasing a nice stone house modeled after an European castle (complete with secret hidden passages) located in a wealthy suburb adjacent to Dayton and within walking distance of the research institute. I lived in a more modest abode on the other side of the railroad tracks (literally!) but also within walking distance. I still live there, but Karl had to sell his wonderful house for reasons not important to this tale. Anyway, we both often worked late into the night because the work was so interesting. We were both salaried, so there was no extra pay for the extra hours. We just loved all things electronical, electro-optical, electro-mechanical, and whatever electro-fill-in-the-blank we came across during our research activities. There were a few other professionals and even one or two professors who worked the same kind of hours simply because they really enjoyed their work. I think most of our peers thought we were nuts.

Anyway, because of the late-night hours, Karl would often receive telephone calls that he didn't answer because the phone was in his office and there was no phone in his lab. These were ordinary multiline desk phones connected to a Centrex switch. Each phone had two to four buttons that would light up and blink when that line was ringing or illuminate steadily when the line was in use. Karl's simple and cheap solution was to rig up a cadmium sulfide LDR inside a rubber boot that slipped over a button on the desk phone. He may have had one for each button; I don't recall that detail. He strung a pair of doorbell wires (like is used in house doorbells) to his lab and connected them to a 12V battery and a doorbell. If a button lit up, the CdS resistance would drop low enough to ring the doorbell and alert Karl to run to his office to answer the phone. Of course he had to remember to disconnect the doorbell battery before he answered the phone and re-connect when he returned to the lab. Karl didn't have the best short-term memory in the world. He would often write notes to himself on Hollerith cards and place those cards in his jacket pockets to serve as reminders. No hole punches necessary for the data, just a pen or pencil. I am of an age where that "memory jogger" technique is beginning to look attractive, although my Galaxy 4 smart phone can also store notes... if I can remember how to do that. But where can I buy a box of blank Hollerith cards, except maybe on E-bay $5.35 for 15?

@KrisBlueNZ: I did do the introduction page here. The "h" in hevans1944 stands for Howard or for my nick-name, Hop. 1944 is when I was born on Sunday, June 25 at 12:10 PM (local time in Welch WVA). I just now got around to liking your post #25! Sure wish we knew how much current the 12 to 24 V DC DEVICE can source. Power MOSFETs are nice, especially in Class D amplifiers.

@(*steve*): Have fun with your PUT! Just remember to put a current limiting resistor in the cathode lead if you are discharging a capacitor through it. The maximum energy it can handle is only 250 μJ, so size the capacitor and its charging voltage accordingly so as not to let the smoke out: 1/2 CV² < 250 μJ should be safe enough bearing in mind that V is exponentially decreasing. Or maybe use SPICE to simulate the circuit first, although I have no faith (like Bob Pease) that SPICE simulations resemble reality. You gotta understand the physics first!

On tunnel (or Esaki) diodes: Tektronix briefly flirted with these for triggering time-base sweeps in one of their oscilloscopes. Too finicky for a field instrument. I think I remember a "grid dip" oscillator circuit that also used a tunnel diode oscillator, but that didn't catch on either. The tunnel diode did garner a Nobel prize for Esaki though, not to mention advancing quantum physics.

If your interest includes microwave frequencies above 10 GHz or so, the Gunn diode or TED (transferred electron device) makes a robust oscillator when inserted in a tuned cavity. Radar speed guns use Gunn diodes and they have also been used by radio amateurs. Wikipedia has a nice article on Gunn diodes.

Sadly, except for a short tour in the USAF, and some propagation experiments at 70 GHz at the research institute, my practical microwave experience has been nil. Unless you can find surplus parts (waveguides, circulators, Magic-Ts, micrometer tuning stubs, horns, parabolic reflectors, etc.) and surplus test equipment, it is an expensive pursuit.

73 de AC8NS
Hop
 

supak111

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Yes I can use a PNP transistor that shouldn't be a problem I don't think. I'll try to get some voltage readings in different light today if I can. I only tested one device so far and it used 14.7volts and when triggered it was pulling only 30ma of current. Ill test one other one tomorrow. I'm also waiting on the little LDR module to come in and do some testing on that.
 

davenn

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If your interest includes microwave frequencies above 10 GHz or so, the Gunn diode or TED (transferred electron device) makes a robust oscillator when inserted in a tuned cavity. Radar speed guns use Gunn diodes and they have also been used by radio amateurs. Wikipedia has a nice article on Gunn diodes.

Sadly, except for a short tour in the USAF, and some propagation experiments at 70 GHz at the research institute, my practical microwave experience has been nil. Unless you can find surplus parts (waveguides, circulators, Magic-Ts, micrometer tuning stubs, horns, parabolic reflectors, etc.) and surplus test equipment, it is an expensive pursuit.

just off topic a bit ... this can be continued in PM or the lounge area
I am also a ham, VK2TDN .... have great interest in 1 GHz and up
have a look here for some of my activities if interested in chatting further
open a thread in the off topic lounge :)

cheers
Dave
 

supak111

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Ok guys I did some more tests, 2 devices tested when they are shorted: one uses 9v at 30ma, other uses 14.7v at 30ma.

Whatever it is inside these devices that my circuit is turning ON seems to always uses 30ma.

Also connected my circuit to 14v and tested the V at the wire that normally goes to the base of the BJT. My circuit usually sits in a small dark box with just one tiny hole on the box and my external 1/2watt LED that only give the LDR light points right at the hole so not much if any external/ambient light ever reaches the LDR other the the light from the 1/2watt LED.

  • The voltage in darkness with the 1/2watt LED off = low less then 1v
  • The voltage in bright light with the 1/2watt LED off = same less then 1v
  • The voltage in darkness with the 1/2watt LED on = 14v
  • the voltage in bright light with the 1/2watt LED on = 14v
 
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KrisBlueNZ

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Are you still using your original circuit from post #1?

So with the BJT's base disconnected, the voltage at the bottom end of the LDR is normally less than 1V and jumps up to nearly the full supply voltage when the LDR is illuminated?

That sounds OK, although the base voltage should really be below 0.6V when the LDR is not illuminated. You can do that by reducing the base-emitter resistance - take out the 10k fixed resistor, for example. And adjust the trimpot until the voltage is less than 0.6V with no illumination on the LDR.

Then when you connect the BJT base, what is the problem? Exactly?
 

CDRIVE

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Sorry by me trying to make this less confusing I may have made it more confusing.

My circuit is the LIGHTBOX, and the device my circuit/lightbox attaches to is a same circuit because 2 wires that come out of my circuit/lightbox (12v and 0V wires in the diagram above) go to this device I'm triggering. DEVICE is the thing I'm triggering with my circuit/lightbox.

So it goes like this. LED light lights up (forget where the LED light is coming from, I can't tap into that circuit for sure), that light goes into my circuit aka LIGHTBOX, which then needs to give power to the end product aka DEVICE vie the 0V wire which now should now have 12V because my transistor is ON.

PS I will try the schmitt trigger, I hope it fixes my problem. Removing my whole circuit and just making a short from 12v to 0v does the job, but I want that job done by light. Relay works great too but I want it done without having an external power source.

It's been so long that I forgot how much fun it was deciphering member's mystery circuits. In earlier posts you eluded to your LDR circuit switching on multiple classified devices. I assume simultaneously by simply momentarily pulling a control port low on unidentified devices.

If that's the case your circuit should only be using an open collector connection to the unknown devices control port. This doesn't address the fact that you'll have multiple control ports wired in parallel to the same open collector transistor. We also don't know how this paralleling will effect the individual control ports while the transistor is in the OFF sate.

Chris
 

CDRIVE

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Yea I'm not sure exactly what is causing the problem in my circuit to be honest as this circuit is turning ON many different devices. Works on most, but not on some.

Here is a little background. My circuit (call it LIGHTBOX) is being used and attached to other electronic DEVICES, so it basically acts as a light relay and turns stuff ON/OFF on the device you put it on. My circuit above works on most devices but NOT on some. What I have noticed is that on the DEVICES that it does not work on, if you just short circuit the V+ to V0 on the device itself the device does the function that my LIGHTBOX should be doing in the first place. After talking to you guys I now suspect that the problem might be that some Devices I'm trying to turn ON aren't doing so because the signal from my circuit is slow on and might not even get fully turned on. I think schmitt trigger might be the fix for this so I'll try that first.

Is there a small/cheap schmitt trigger ic that I can easily integrate into my circuit?

This is your post I was referring to in my last post.

Chris
 
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