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Is microprocessor an integrated circuit???

M

Mark Zenier

Jan 1, 1970
0
PLEASE show an example of a microprocessor that doesnt use microcode

Most of them have their control unit logic implemented in a PLA
(Programmable Logic Array) which directly implements a two level logic
equation. With microcode, there would be an address that was decoded
to provide a word (or row) of the ROM's contents. There's no such thing
as an address in a PLA, just inputs and outputs.

Mark Zenier [email protected] Washington State resident
 
M

Mark Zenier

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, actually, the microprogram in a microprocessor should actually be
called a picoprogram, or picocode! ;-)

The 68000 had a two level microcode system to save space
and the second level was called the nanoprogram.

Mark Zenier [email protected] Washington State resident
 
T

TCS

Jan 1, 1970
0
I dont recall saying the PDP 11 or 11/780 were microprocessors, I said

Oh christ. You don't recall saying that microprogrammed processors
where microprocessors? Is your memory that short or are you truly
a troll?
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Now here is the sure-fire way to discern the incompetent, unqualified,
pretentious individual anywhere in the industry, anyone who would start out
by saying something to the effect of "Your limited experience..." or "Since
you are so inexperienced, but me, Im so worldly and all knowing..." or
"You should leave the high tech concepts to people who are more
experienced..."

Ive seen them in the industry, they hide the lack of ability by being the
first to call others incompetent, everything is rehearsed, they dont like
people watching them solve problems, they form into tight cliques and launch
office politics type attacks to defend their job. I seek out that attitude,
if I find it in my company? The person is fired about as surely as Donald
Trump fires people for his reasons.

Yeah, that L*rk*n fellow is a viper. Always attacking. And a terrible
employee, I'll bet. You might want to hold off on posting as long as
he's around here.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
K

keith

Jan 1, 1970
0
You think I havent read the spec before? I dont have the thing sitting here
because its not needed for SW dev.

No I don't. YOu thought it was megabucks, so couldn't be bothered to buy
one (for $18). You're now showing that on top of being ignoran, your're
stupid, and now a liar. ...not a good day, overall.
Ive seen it, there are lots of essay style sections, sub sections, legal
looking and not many pictures, I like books with pictures in them

None of which you've read or understood (or even seen - see above). You
were told somethign by your third-rate teachers at your fourth-rate
college (if you got that far) and believe them. Get a refund. They
defrauded you.
Im working on that, easier to squeeze water from a rock, those crooks.

Si you admit that you're pig ignorant, but assume the rest of the world
has had an education as "good" as yours? Sorry, some of us have had very
good teachers. Experience; lots of it. Open minds help too. You should
try it some time.
So you would say that in 8 bits (aka a "byte") you cannot represent the
range of -127 to +127? What would your math teacher say?

You are not only pig-ignorant, now you're adding *stupid* to the mix. A
"byte" is *not* defined as an eight-bit entity (as JL has said, that would
be the definition of an "octet"). Of course there are 256 possible values
of an 8-bit entity (ignoring representations with two values for zero, for
instance). That's not the point! A byte is *not* universally defined as
being eight bits. Not nowhere, not nohow. It may be defined as being
eight buts for a particular ISA, but it's not a universal definition.
You are a processor developer? Are you familiar with the use
of signed/unsigned numbers?

Give me a fucking break. I was doing binary arithmetic when your father
was still shitting yellow.
Oh suuuuure there are, and in South American jungles a byte can be 3
bamboo sticks? You may be confusing byte with word, a word is a
variable width unit that is relative to the architecture of the
processor or application. A byte is 8 bits today, even when its 9 bits.

You're hopeless. *I* didn't write the above you retard! I'm quoting from
the site referenced. Did you even do the search I suggested? Of course
not. You're happy with your ignorance.
No, it leaves the definition open. In the typical limits.h, the word
byte is 8 bits, its like saying an inch can be whatever length you want
it to be. To machinists? they stick to a set standard.

Can you fucking read? (that's a rhetorical question, sicne your postings
show that you clearly cannot).
Yet you havent shown where people, today, in business, use the byte for
MORE than 8 bits? Not in some novelty scenario 40 years ago thats long
gone, does Intel use a non 8-bit byte? Xilinx? Altera? Microsoft?

Retard, you were arguing not a half-day ago that ninety thousand years ago
a "microprocessor" was defined as being a processor that was microcoded
(absolutely wrong). Now you decide that all processors made *today* have
eight-bit bytes, thus a byte is *defined* to be 8-bits.

The fact is that you're wrong, twice. In fact you haven't been right
about anything yet. ...but are pig-headed enough to continue on fighting
your 0-n-2 record. Give it up and flip burgers. You'll be a lot less
dangerous in a McD's.

Yes Ive heard of Octal, yes some people for a particular era/industry
adopted the word byte for 6 bits. The originator made it 8 bits which
has lasted and is the standard. In hardware, are there any non 8 bit
byte devices?

You are off-the-chart stupid. A 6-bit byte is *still* a byte, whether
it's represented in octal or not. The "originator" of the term "byte" did
*not* specify it as 8-bits. In fact it was IBM that standardized on
8-bits, *after* the term was already in use. Sheesh!
Do you use 2629 code? Hollerith punched cards? if not, why not? I
want, no I demand all computers today be equipped with a Hollerith
punched card reader that uses 2629 code.

Stupid is as stupid types.

Anyone else reading along will see that you're hopeless and won't go down
the quagmire you call a road. I feel sorry for anyone who has to pick up
your messes.

--
Keith

 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keith Williams said:
Perhaps, but sometimes they're trying to tell you something.

With "10 bit byte" in google. I quickly found a newish (2003) document
that speaks of 10 bit bytes written by IBM of all people.
 
P

Pig Bladder

Jan 1, 1970
0
I dont recall saying the PDP 11 or 11/780 were microprocessors,

Allow me to refresh your memory:
----------<quote>----------
Subject: Re: Is microprocessor an integrated circuit???
From: "Bradley1234" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Message-ID: <oMRJd.35$lg5.9@trnddc06>
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:59:32 GMT

TCS said:
No it doesn't. It means micro-sized processor. What you're describing also
includes the vax-11/780 whose processor board was hardly a microprocessor.

Yes, the 11/780 cpu was a microprocessor. Who on earth came up with micro
sized processor? Why not micro stereotypical processor?
--------<end quote>--------
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, no offense, but 2005 - 30 = 1975 > 1972 (the year of the 4004
processor), so maybe you weren't around before the change of meaning.
;-)

The term wasn't used before ("microcode" and "microcoded processor"
were). And your arithmetic is close enough, but I did say "over". ;-)
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeah, that L*rk*n fellow is a viper. Always attacking. And a terrible
employee, I'll bet. You might want to hold off on posting as long as
he's around here.


Hisssss. Or something.

John
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most of them have their control unit logic implemented in a PLA
(Programmable Logic Array) which directly implements a two level logic
equation. With microcode, there would be an address that was decoded
to provide a word (or row) of the ROM's contents. There's no such thing
as an address in a PLA, just inputs and outputs.

One can also argue (rightly) that a PLA is nothing but a sparse ROM,
thus microcode. The instruction decoder "PLA" in the processor I work
on is synthesized into gates. Is that a "PLA", "microcode", or "hard-
wired"? Thar be dragons... ;-)
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most of them have their control unit logic implemented in a PLA
(Programmable Logic Array) which directly implements a two level logic
equation. With microcode, there would be an address that was decoded
to provide a word (or row) of the ROM's contents. There's no such thing
as an address in a PLA, just inputs and outputs.

If you have a PLA and a ROM in a black box, and are allowed to observe
the outputs only after they have settled, what difference is there
between the two?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
One can also argue (rightly) that a PLA is nothing but a sparse ROM,
thus microcode.

I'd say, the definitive factor here is, can you write a program? Is there
an instruction set?
The instruction decoder "PLA" in the processor I work
on is synthesized into gates. Is that a "PLA", "microcode", or "hard-
wired"? Thar be dragons... ;-)

Well, that's just it. What's the conceptual equivalent of a(an?) FFT when
transforming(translating?) a truth table to a program listing?

Microcode can be listed. Logic can only be drawn.
I have spoken! (so I'm probably wrong.) ;-P

Thanks!
Rich
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'd say, the definitive factor here is, can you write a program? Is there
an instruction set?

A microprocessor without an instruction set is, umm, useless?
Well, that's just it. What's the conceptual equivalent of a(an?) FFT when
transforming(translating?) a truth table to a program listing?

Microcode can be listed. Logic can only be drawn.
I have spoken! (so I'm probably wrong.) ;-P

I can list this "PLA" microcode (I have the power;), but it never
exists in hardware. It's converted by the synthesis tools from VHDL
into gates. What does that make it? Is it microprogrammed? The
source sure looks like a PLA. It's even called a PLA in the source.
It's random logic on the chip though.

I'm telling you that "thar be dragons" if you insist on defining things
with nice black lines.
 
B

Bradley1234

Jan 1, 1970
0
No I don't. YOu thought it was megabucks, so couldn't be bothered to buy
one (for $18). You're now showing that on top of being ignoran, your're
stupid, and now a liar. ...not a good day, overall.

The ISO appears to sell it for $399. Those kinds of publications are
pricey, thats a fact of life. If someone found it for $18 ? sounds like a
bargain

None of which you've read or understood (or even seen - see above). You
were told somethign by your third-rate teachers at your fourth-rate
college (if you got that far) and believe them. Get a refund. They
defrauded you.

Or maybe Im so smart, so amazingly qualified and so experienced that Im not
afraid to be misinterpreted or misunderestimated


Si you admit that you're pig ignorant, but assume the rest of the world
has had an education as "good" as yours? Sorry, some of us have had very
good teachers. Experience; lots of it. Open minds help too. You should
try it some time.

I admit that I want a refund on some of the tuition I paid because the
school was incompetent, I was overqualified. You jump to conclusions, not
very open minded


You are not only pig-ignorant, now you're adding *stupid* to the mix. A
"byte" is *not* defined as an eight-bit entity (as JL has said, that would
be the definition of an "octet"). Of course there are 256 possible values
of an 8-bit entity (ignoring representations with two values for zero, for
instance). That's not the point! A byte is *not* universally defined as
being eight bits. Not nowhere, not nohow. It may be defined as being
eight buts for a particular ISA, but it's not a universal definition.

I said an 8 bit byte can represent the range of -127 to +127 and you said:
"Nope"

Its like arguing that the inch scale of measurement is arbitrary, its not.
With only a few rare exceptions in history, a byte is 8 bits, and is the
standard. We note with disk and memory sizes, they are rated in Mega or
Giga bytes. Network interface speeds in Mega bytes per second.

Western Digital could double their disk size by saying a byte is now 16 bits
wide.

One of the other factors in using the byte system is the Base 2 math, and
unless IM mistaken shifting left or right will double or divide by 2 the
binary base 2 number. Designers would therefore prefer a byte that is a
multiple, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32

But since its already 8 bits, thats how its used.
Give me a f#@$!@# break. I was doing binary arithmetic when your father
was still s#@#$ yellow.

When a person begins losing a debate and has no declarative or informative
contribution, the discussion degrades into separate and unique steps,
personal attacks (pig stupid), then profanity, then rage, then violence.

If you claim to have understood binary at that specific point in time? you
would be over 100 years old. Congratulations that you are coherent and not
senile
You're hopeless. *I* didn't write the above you retard! I'm quoting from
the site referenced. Did you even do the search I suggested? Of course
not. You're happy with your ignorance.

Yes I researched the site, the oddball, erroneous, unauthorized uses of the
term "byte" exist. But the SAE measurement of inches has a better chance to
be converted to metric than the byte has a chance of being other than 8
bits.

When a byte is represented as 9 bits, the 8 bits remain as the data the
extra bit is a parity bit, meaning its a type of wrapper component, not a
literal 9-bit word. If anyone in history combined 3 octal digits into a 9
bit word? its technically not the same.


Can you #$%#read? (that's a rhetorical question, sicne your postings
show that you clearly cannot).

The official C standard is rhetoric?
Retard, you were arguing not a half-day ago that ninety thousand years ago
a "microprocessor" was defined as being a processor that was microcoded
(absolutely wrong). Now you decide that all processors made *today* have
eight-bit bytes, thus a byte is *defined* to be 8-bits.

Thats what it means, by the majority of the industry, and your failure to
provide any examples in the industry show that I was correct

The fact is that you're wrong, twice. In fact you haven't been right
about anything yet. ...but are pig-headed enough to continue on fighting
your 0-n-2 record. Give it up and flip burgers. You'll be a lot less
dangerous in a McD's.

Well then you wont want to know Ive contributed for years to make those
things that launch into orbit whatever they are called, go up and keep the
range safe so they fly up there and spin around or whatever they do.

I dont believe a McD's would hire me with my resume, too overqualified

You are off-the-chart stupid. A 6-bit byte is *still* a byte, whether
it's represented in octal or not. The "originator" of the term "byte" did
*not* specify it as 8-bits. In fact it was IBM that standardized on
8-bits, *after* the term was already in use. Sheesh!

Okay you win, Im sorry to upset you so much, if you want to say a 6 bit byte
is a byte... no, I wont do it, youre wrong, I cant even pretend to concede,
its an 8 bit byte

Well if you knew binary over 100 years ago, you should then of course know
about the Hollerith punched card and what 2629 is.

I like punched card equipment, it was fun to work on with the mechanical
stuff and electrical also

Stupid is as stupid types.

Anyone else reading along will see that you're hopeless and won't go down
the quagmire you call a road. I feel sorry for anyone who has to pick up
your messes.

Well people do say everyone has to work harder when Im around


 
B

Bradley1234

Jan 1, 1970
0
I dont recall saying the PDP 11 or 11/780 were microprocessors,
Allow me to refresh your memory:

quote and reply from my post:
microprocessor.


Yes, the 11/780 cpu was a microprocessor. Who on earth came up with micro
sized processor? Why not micro stereotypical processor?


--------<end quote>--------


Thanks for proving what I said was correct. The 11/780 CPU, meaning its
processor board(s) If I recall there were options, you could have a
floating point unit or some other thing to add also, the cpu would be a
collection of large sized boards, which were..... drum roll please........
microprogrammed

The 11/780 chassis had cpu boards, I/O processor boards, memory boards and
large power supplies, usually had a tape drive, some user console, some
large removable disk most likely. It was a supermini system. The
reference to the cpu meant that part of the system. Its been a long time
since Ive ever dealt with one.
 
L

Larry Brasfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
[Lotsa stuff ...]
I admit that I want a refund on some of the tuition I paid because the
school was incompetent, I was overqualified. You jump to conclusions, not
very open minded ....
Western Digital could double their disk size by saying a byte is now 16 bits
wide.

Better ask for that refund for your mathematics curriculum
too. If Western Digital were to define the byte that way,
they would have to declare half as much storage stated in
their form of bytes.

On the rest, your foot is inserted so far into your mouth
that I suspect your toes are showing up, brown.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
[Lotsa stuff ...]
I admit that I want a refund on some of the tuition I paid because the
school was incompetent, I was overqualified. You jump to conclusions, not
very open minded ...
Western Digital could double their disk size by saying a byte is now 16 bits
wide.

Better ask for that refund for your mathematics curriculum
too. If Western Digital were to define the byte that way,
they would have to declare half as much storage stated in
their form of bytes.

Besides, if you feed "10 bit byte" into google, you get among others an
IBM document discribing a system that uses 10 bits in its bytes. This is
not some old computer from the stone age it is new IBM hardware.

At this point if Bradly1234 said the sky was blue, I'd look for myself.
 
B

Bradley1234

Jan 1, 1970
0
...

Better ask for that refund for your mathematics curriculum
too. If Western Digital were to define the byte that way,
they would have to declare half as much storage stated in
their form of bytes.

Okay, I got that one wrong, finally something I was actually mistaken on,
obviously it was intended to be "an arbitrarily different size of the
defined byte, to double disk space" 4 bits then
 
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