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Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?

M

mm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?

At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.


I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.

I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
those units that might have them.

Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)


I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.


Items for sale, if interested:
I can install it myself. I'm considering, in ascending price order:
http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG...evice/dp/B003NVLWN2/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_01_t_lh
http://www.amazon.com/INTERMATIC-IG...ESTOR/dp/B003A3MUJI/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_02_t_lh
http://www.smarthome.com/4860/Leviton-51120-1-Whole-House-Surge-Suppressor-Surge-Protector/p.aspx


and less likely (plus two are required, one for each leg)
http://www.amazon.com/Square-D-SDSA1175CP-ARRESTER-LIGHTNG/dp/B002GUZ1NI
 
G

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
mm said:
Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?

At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.

Stop buying junk. MOV surge protectors are really worthless junk. Here in
230v land, when they go, they often do so with a bang and sometimes catch
fire.

Look at TransTector ones. They use silicon avalance diodes which when compared
to MOVs are indestructable. They are more expensive but in the long run cheaper
as they don't fail like MOV ones.

You might also want to learn about how lightening works and how to avoid it.

Contrary to what people believe (yes Franklin got it wrong) lightening flows
from the GROUND UP. Once a path is opened from the ground, the polarity
reverses and the usual flash you see flows downward.

If you place grounded sharp pointed objects on top of buildings, you will
CREATE lightening.

If you place large "fuzzy" grounded objects on top of buildings, you will
dissipate any charges that build up and reduce the chance of lightening
strikes.

I got rid of a lightening problem by placing a large 2m ham band (144mHz)
antenna on my roof. It was a 12 foot beam with 10 vertical elements and
10 horizontal elements. At 144mHz it was an antenna, at DC (lightening)
it was just a big blob of aluminum connected to ground. So as charges
started to build up, they were dissipated.

When I moved, I took down the antenna, I wonder what my neighbors thought
when the lightening returned. :-(

Geoff.
 
B

bud--

Jan 1, 1970
0
mm said:
Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?

At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.

It is an engineered device with internal protection matched to the MOVs.
I would never repair one.
I was going to install a whole house surge suppressor. When one of
them does its function, I think the MOV burns out, or some part does.

Surge hits to a MOV deteriorate it. With high ratings a suppressor will
last a very long time. The worst case surge on a service power line to
your house that has any reasonable chance of occurring is 10,000A.
Suppressors with much higher ratings are readily available.

For a house, the IEEE recommends ratings of 20,000 to 70,000A _per
wire_. For high lightning areas the recommendation is 40,000 to 120,000A
_per wire_.
I haven't seen anything on the web about replacement modules for even
those units that might have them.

Will I be able to find, buy, and solder in replacement MOVs after the
first one burns out? (the green led goes out and the red led goes on)


I can't find any info about plug-in replacement parts, so if I can
repair any unit myself, I won't have to shop so thoroughly.

Make sure your fire insurance covers the suppressor you engineered.
Items for sale, if interested:
I can install it myself. I'm considering, in ascending price order:
http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG...evice/dp/B003NVLWN2/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_01_t_lh

This has minimal information and no ratings. Didn't look at the two below.

Also has minimal information and no ratings. If it only protects one
wire don't get it - get one made for a service protecting both wires. I
do like SquareD as a brand.
 
B

bud--

Jan 1, 1970
0
Geoffrey said:
Stop buying junk. MOV surge protectors are really worthless junk. Here in
230v land, when they go, they often do so with a bang and sometimes catch
fire.

The IEEE (largest association of electrical and electronic engineers in
the US) says that ">90% of both hard-wired and plug-in protectors use
MOVs to perform the voltage-limiting function. In most AC protectors,
they are the only significant voltage limiters.".

MOVs work fine.

In the US, since 1998, UL has required suppressors have a thermal
disconnect to disconnect failing MOVS. I have seen no reason to believe
fires are a problem on UL listed suppressors made since 1998. Would
think that "230v land" would have similar requirements.
Look at TransTector ones. They use silicon avalance diodes which when compared
to MOVs are indestructable. They are more expensive but in the long run cheaper
as they don't fail like MOV ones.

If you get high ratings, MOV based suppressors are not likely to fail.
It is one reason why some suppressors can have warranties on connected
equipment.

You can, of course, buy what you want.
You might also want to learn about how lightening works and how to avoid it.

Contrary to what people believe (yes Franklin got it wrong) lightening flows
from the GROUND UP. Once a path is opened from the ground, the polarity
reverses and the usual flash you see flows downward.

Polarity reverses?

The usual process is for charge do descend in steps - a stepped leader.
When the charge gets close enough to the earth the final link is a
stroke from the earth to end of the stepped leader.
If you place grounded sharp pointed objects on top of buildings, you will
CREATE lightening.

There is not a lot of research on what end on a lightning rod (now
called air terminals) is most effective. The best information I have
seen is that a 5/8" diameter rounded point is more effective, and the
difference is minimal. Rods protect by being the highest point. They are
a safe "point of attachment" for the lightning that will occur anyway.
If you place large "fuzzy" grounded objects on top of buildings, you will
dissipate any charges that build up and reduce the chance of lightening
strikes.

I got rid of a lightening problem by placing a large 2m ham band (144mHz)
antenna on my roof. It was a 12 foot beam with 10 vertical elements and
10 horizontal elements. At 144mHz it was an antenna, at DC (lightening)
it was just a big blob of aluminum connected to ground. So as charges
started to build up, they were dissipated.

There are commercial lightning protection systems that claim to work by
dissipating charge. Everything I have seen is that they don't work. I
believe they lost a court case in the US.
 
M

mm

Jan 1, 1970
0
It is an engineered device with internal protection matched to the MOVs.
I would never repair one.


Surge hits to a MOV deteriorate it. With high ratings a suppressor will
last a very long time. The worst case surge on a service power line to
your house that has any reasonable chance of occurring is 10,000A.
Suppressors with much higher ratings are readily available.

For a house, the IEEE recommends ratings of 20,000 to 70,000A _per
wire_. For high lightning areas the recommendation is 40,000 to 120,000A
_per wire_.


Make sure your fire insurance covers the suppressor you engineered.


This has minimal information and no ratings. Didn't look at the two below.

Yes, the Amazon ads seem to have less info than one would want on
something like this.

There are specs somewhere, adn I'll find them and compare with what
you've said.

I've been here 28 years and once I found smoke coming out of the
burglar alarm keypad/controller unit (yes, both) by the front door,
which might have been caused by lightning, although I didn't remember
any. Still the amount of vulerable equipment keeps growning and
growing.

Thanks, for this thread and the previous one, and thanks everybody.
 
E

Eike Lantzsch, ZP6CGE

Jan 1, 1970
0
mm said:
Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
[snip]
When I moved, I took down the antenna, I wonder what my neighbors thought
when the lightening returned. :-(

Geoff.

Geoff:

Lightening is what Michael Jackson did to his face. Lightning is that
big electrical discharge from the sky <G>

Bob Hofmann

Well, it was en-lightening anyway ;-)

Kind regards, Eike
 
B

Boris Mohar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Leviton. Ground it well with as short ground wire as possible to good house
ground.
 
M

mm

Jan 1, 1970
0
I didn't think of this until Michael posted but so what? Say I
repaired it and say I didn't do a good job: My insurance doesn't
require me to have a surge suprressor, so if I repair it and do a bad
job, and it doesn't cause damage nor does it prevent damage the next
time, they are no worse off than if I had never bought one. So they
should still pay.

I want the SurgeSupp is more so I don't have to go shopping again, and
read new instruction manuals.
If fixed properly, how would they know? As long as he isnt obviously
bodgeing something togeather it should be fine.

Yes. Also, I hadn't even considered claiming damage to the surge
suppressor on my insureance.

So do they sell at retail the MOVs or other parts I would need rebuild
a surge suppressor.
 
M

mm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks. Now it's 56 dollars. I see that Amazon has this 36 also
including shipping.
So I showed you the same model you showed first. But, you do NOT need
TWO.

Oh, thank you. I got confused by the drawing, at
http://surgelogic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/SDSA1175_IB_8291-0014F.pdf
which shows two for 3-phase (but only one for single-phase), and since
it has only 3 wires, one to the neutral, but none to the ground like
some others have.

Do you think I should to connect a surge suppressor to unused circuit
breakers? Some instructions say to do that for increased sensitivity
but others say nothing about it. Because the circuits I wanted to
use are often off or almost totally off, just the baseline portable tv
current or a cordless phone charger running.

It also says "Twist wires one half turn or more for
every 12 in. (305 mm) of length." That means when all three wires are
running together, right? In conduit or something? Once they
separate, even if the wires are stranded, there's no point to twisting
them, is there?
There seems like a lot of confusion on protectors and the
manufacturers seem
to have various schemes going on. Some of the very small portable
devices by
Tripplite have ratings that indicate higher amps than the regular
whole house protectors. I installed the 'secondary" protector in my
breaker box

If thse are secondary, as they also call them, then where is the
primary? On the electric pole?
and I probably have 10 other protectors all around the house.

You should not have to keep buying new ones. You got some kind of
problem that requires attention.

I've never even needed one. I was just planning ahead.

Thanks a lot, GB, and thanks everyone.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
The "parallel" components (such as MOVs) in a surge suppressor will have
some effect on every other parallel line (lines connected to the same
phase). It doesn't matter whether any device is attached to the suppressor,
or is turned on.
 
B

bud--

Jan 1, 1970
0
mm said:
Thanks. Now it's 56 dollars. I see that Amazon has this 36 also
including shipping.

Oh, thank you. I got confused by the drawing, at
http://surgelogic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/SDSA1175_IB_8291-0014F.pdf
which shows two for 3-phase (but only one for single-phase), and since
it has only 3 wires, one to the neutral, but none to the ground like
some others have.

It is intended for installation in a service panel. In the US, the
service panel (containing the service disconnect) has the neutral and
ground bonded together

In a subpanel (with separate neutral and ground bars) there would be
separate wires for the neutral and ground.
Do you think I should to connect a surge suppressor to unused circuit
breakers? Some instructions say to do that for increased sensitivity
but others say nothing about it. Because the circuits I wanted to
use are often off or almost totally off, just the baseline portable tv
current or a cordless phone charger running.

It shouldn't matter.

(You are suppressing surges on the service busbars, not branch circuit.
Not obvious if you were saying something different.)
It also says "Twist wires one half turn or more for
every 12 in. (305 mm) of length." That means when all three wires are
running together, right? In conduit or something? Once they
separate, even if the wires are stranded, there's no point to twisting
them, is there?

A surge is a very short-time event. Therefore it has relatively high
frequency components. The inductance of the wire is more important than
the resistance. Wire length is more important than it would seem. You
want a short connecting wires from the suppressor to the panel
connections. That is why the instructions say "keep the wire length as
short as possible. If the wires are in close proximity the wire
inductance is reduced. That is why the wires are slightly twisted.

A useful rating for a MOV is its joule rating. UL does not have a
defined way of specifying joules. As a result some manufacturers are
using misleading or deceptive joule ratings on their products, which
puts honest manufacturers at a disadvantage. As a result, some
manufacturers no longer provide a joule rating. The amp rating is
equivalent, but defined. A high amp rating (like a high joule rating)
indicates a suppressor will have a long life. A plug-in suppressor with
high ratings could have an amp rating higher than a service panel
suppressor. (There is no possibility of a very high current on a branch
circuit; high current ratings just reflects a high joule rating.)

MOVs intrinsically try to limit the voltage across their terminals. In a
service panel the H-N voltages are limited (also H-H). That can result
in a high current to earth. Most of the energy in the incoming surge is
dumped to the earth. A small part of the energy is dissipated in the MOVs.

At a plug-in suppressor, the MOVs also limits the voltage H-G, N-G and
H-N. Because of the impedance of the ground wire, not much energy gets
dumped to the earth. But because of the impedance of the H and N, there
is similarly a very limited current that can flow. Energy dissipated in
the MOVs is surprisingly small (and there is another reason for this).
But the "ground potential" at the suppressor can be far different from
the service panel. All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to
the same suppressor and all external wires (power, phone, cable, ...)
need to go through the suppressor. The voltage on all wires is clamped
to the ground at the suppressor.
 
F

Fred

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?

At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.

Totally unnecessary. Call your power company about every other year and
file a report that your lights are blinking when the wind blows. They'll
send out a service truck to investigate with a guy we don't pay anywhere
near enough to risk his life working around the 23KV primary on the pole.
Ask him to check your house's connections at the pole for tightness,
paying special attention to the NEUTRAL connections, which are the ONLY
way your 120VAC can surge up to 240VAC if neutral comes loose and there's
a big load on the OTHER phase from the one your computer is on. While
he's there, ask him to inspect the grounding on your meter base and
verify its lightning gap hasn't been damaged by any hits. It's inside
the meter base and he's the only one with a replacement seal to install.

Please consider offering these great lineman a refreshing beverage to say
thank you for the free service they provide you. I usually show up with
a cold Coke for each of them as they are nesting the bucket and stowing
their HV gloves. I'm more of a shock to them than anything the
generators can produce....(c;] If it's quitting time when they finish, I
move from Coke to a quality beer as they've had a hard shift in the hot
sun. Guess who's power gets restored FIRST after the next storm!....(c;]


If your house if FIRMLY attached to the pole transformer, "surges" are
virtually impossible UNLESS you get hit by lightning. NO surge
protector, no matter how expensive, says anything about LIGHTNING
PROTECTOR, ever. That would be a lie. The 23KV primary phase of
America's 3 phase Tesla multiphase AC power system is quite stable. The
natural magnetic hysteresis of the 60 hz core in your distribution
transformer prevents any pulses from being sent to your house until the
lightning protector in its primary fuse holder explodes in defeat.

"Surge Protector" is a great sales gimmick. If you want to save your
computer, buy it a nice UPS to protect it from LOSING power, especially
during disk write operations where you can lose EVERYTHING on that drive.

If you're intent on spending money, please consider replacing your
breaker panel breakers on all electrical outlets and appliances with GFI
breakers, making it much less possible to kill a child sticking a metal
object into America's absurdly designed bladed receptacles designed in
1900. The only way to get shocked after their installation is to get
right across the powerline from hot to neutral, which rarely happens to
kill anyone. I support GFI installation 100%!
 
T

tm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred said:
Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?

At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.

Totally unnecessary. Call your power company about every other year and
file a report that your lights are blinking when the wind blows. They'll
send out a service truck to investigate with a guy we don't pay anywhere
near enough to risk his life working around the 23KV primary on the pole.
Ask him to check your house's connections at the pole for tightness,
paying special attention to the NEUTRAL connections, which are the ONLY
way your 120VAC can surge up to 240VAC if neutral comes loose and there's
a big load on the OTHER phase from the one your computer is on. While
he's there, ask him to inspect the grounding on your meter base and
verify its lightning gap hasn't been damaged by any hits. It's inside
the meter base and he's the only one with a replacement seal to install.

Please consider offering these great lineman a refreshing beverage to say
thank you for the free service they provide you. I usually show up with
a cold Coke for each of them as they are nesting the bucket and stowing
their HV gloves. I'm more of a shock to them than anything the
generators can produce....(c;] If it's quitting time when they finish, I
move from Coke to a quality beer as they've had a hard shift in the hot
sun. Guess who's power gets restored FIRST after the next storm!....(c;]


If your house if FIRMLY attached to the pole transformer, "surges" are
virtually impossible UNLESS you get hit by lightning. NO surge
protector, no matter how expensive, says anything about LIGHTNING
PROTECTOR, ever. That would be a lie. The 23KV primary phase of
America's 3 phase Tesla multiphase AC power system is quite stable. The
natural magnetic hysteresis of the 60 hz core in your distribution
transformer prevents any pulses from being sent to your house until the
lightning protector in its primary fuse holder explodes in defeat.

"Surge Protector" is a great sales gimmick. If you want to save your
computer, buy it a nice UPS to protect it from LOSING power, especially
during disk write operations where you can lose EVERYTHING on that drive.

If you're intent on spending money, please consider replacing your
breaker panel breakers on all electrical outlets and appliances with GFI
breakers, making it much less possible to kill a child sticking a metal
object into America's absurdly designed bladed receptacles designed in
1900. The only way to get shocked after their installation is to get
right across the powerline from hot to neutral, which rarely happens to
kill anyone. I support GFI installation 100%!


I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.

As to the "free" service, that is not true. We pay for the service in the
distribution fees on
the electric bill. So it's the same as "free health care".

As to the service guys getting paid what they deserve, that's between them
and the
utility. I would offer them a well deserved chilly also.


tm
 
J

Jeffrey Angus

Jan 1, 1970
0
The "parallel" components (such as MOVs) in a surge suppressor will have
some effect on every other parallel line (lines connected to the same
phase). It doesn't matter whether any device is attached to the suppressor,
or is turned on.


Sigh.... NO.

Parallel though they may be, they really only protect things
that are "beyond" (or very close) to them. Other branches
have enough series impedance as far as transients are concerned
to deliver on hell of a spike regardless of what a MOV is doing
50-100' of wiring away

Jeff
 
T

tm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
the US to use a GFCI to power either.


--

So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
anyway.


tm
 
T

tm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.

A young child will usually not be dexterous enough to simultaneously stick a
bare metal object into both line and neutral. Even if they do, the main
current
path will not be through the chest. They most likely stick a metal object
into
the line terminal while sitting on the floor and get the current through the
body.
The GFI device will trip under those conditions doing exactly what they were
designed for.

But it's really your choice how safe you want the environment for your young
kids.

But you know this and are only looking for a pissing contest.




tm
 
F

Fred

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
the US to use a GFCI to power either.

So, you're saying it's ok if the motor windings are leaking to, or worse,
connected to the chassis of the fridge as long as it's grounded? That's
the only thing that makes the GFCI trip....about 10ma of something's
wrong.

Back in the 1980's, I submitted a Navy Beneficial Suggestion that GFCIs
be installed at all electronic benches in our calibration and test
equipment repair facilities after an apprentice technician nearly killed
herself pulling a TV-7 tube tester out of its case, inadvertently not
unplugging it. The TV-7 has a big rheostat right close to the case on
the bottom (sitting up) with exposed windings where the slidewire contact
is. She really got burned as she was also touching exposed, highly
grounded metal parts of her workbench (another benny sugg submission).
Months went by and Navy accepted my suggestion system wide, not just in
our shop, handing me a very nice check for both suggestions.

We had some equipment that tripped the GFCI every time, frustrating the
hell out of the bench techs who blamed me. 3 benches, themselves,
tripped out every time it was reset.

Leaking line filters in every case, and the Navy loves line filters, were
the problem. Once the leaking line filters were replaced, making the
equipment SAFE should the ground connection become open, the problem
disappeared. Equipment in the shipyard became safer to operate because
of it. Some metal cased test equipment no longer "bit" its user with low
AC voltages on its grounded case, something we never figured out. It
must have been miswired grounds in the ships crazy balanced 115VAC line
systems. GFCIs fixed it because they instantly detected faulty line
filters, transformers with windings touching the frames or miswired
equipment that had been used for years.

None of my GFCIs on any appliances trips, except during major
thunderstorms. If they do trip, there's a reason....leaky appliances.
One hot water tank ago, there was a heater coil shorted to its metal
calrod sleeve quite near the balance point of the 240VAC line. This
ground fault only shorted out around 12% of the element's resistor so the
element just ran hot in one place, but cold in another from the
imbalanced load shooting high current through the little ground wire.
The GFCI found this short as soon as it happened, eliminating a potential
electrical fire hazard if the current had overrun the flimsy ground wire.

I think many electrical fires could be stopped if GFCI were required on
all circuits....including faulty appliances that trip them.
 
F

Fred

Jan 1, 1970
0
That doesn't stop them from chewing on a cord, or getting hold of a
lamp they knocked off a table.

The 7ma current-to-ground trips the GFCI every time under your stretching
scenario for the pissing contest. Yes, the kid would get an
instantaneous shock in the millisecond range, to no harm, but there's
plenty of leakage from hot to ground to trip the GFCI if he bites into a
wire, even if he's across the neutral. I've heard this BS
rationalization before trying to save money because they are expensive.
But, we tested it. We took an old metal 2-wire Porter-Cable electric
drill and ran a bright yellow wire from hot to the case of it....creating
the electrical fault. If you stayed totally insulated from ground, the
drill would run, but that damned GFCI was uncanny finding you out. Body
leakage to the air Xc would even trip it. If you stood in your sneakers
(insulated!) and touched the hot drill case, the GFCI tripped from the
capacitor your foot made with the concrete under the insulated sole. If
you started by touching NEUTRAL, THEN touching the hot drill motor, the
trip was instantaneous, and you barely could feel the shock DIRECTLY
ACROSS THE AC LINE before the GFCI tripped. Your idiot rationalization
with the little kid across the line wouldn't wash....especially if he was
sitting on a floor, even a wooden one with a vinyl top. (Click), dead
circuit, live kid.
 
G

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred said:
I think many electrical fires could be stopped if GFCI were required on
all circuits....including faulty appliances that trip them.

Here in Israel they are required by the electric company BEFORE main breakers.

You can't get a new connection without one, and every few years there is
an advertising campaign to get people to install them in old homes.

We have 230 volt single phase service, and 230 volt 3 phase split into three
separate circuits, so we don't have the 120/240 problem in the US that
was previously discussed.

Geoff.
 
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