inverter generators

[amdx]

Hi All,
I want a definition of "inverter generator"

Is it as simple as the generator generates a DC voltage and then
an electronic circuit (inverter) uses the dc to make 60 hz AC?

Or maybe the generator generates AC which is changed to DC and
then back to (cleaner, inverter) AC.

Mike

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Hi All,
I want a definition of "inverter generator"

Is it as simple as the generator generates a DC voltage and then
an electronic circuit (inverter) uses the dc to make 60 hz AC?

Or maybe the generator generates AC which is changed to DC and
then back to (cleaner, inverter) AC.

Mike

I'm not sure on what exactly goes on inside them, but the idea is that you
can maintain a stable output frequency over a range of engine speeds.

with a normal genset, you must run the engine at a fixed speed, even if
there's no load which wastes fuel.

Also, an alternator running at higher speeds can be smaller than one
running slower.

 

[amdx]

Hi All,
I want a definition of "inverter generator"

Is it as simple as the generator generates a DC voltage and then
an electronic circuit (inverter) uses the dc to make 60 hz AC?

Or maybe the generator generates AC which is changed to DC and
then back to (cleaner, inverter) AC.

Mike

This is the manual for the Yamaha EF1000:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/service/manuals/0/LIT-19626-01-19_1109.pdf

The schematic at the end shows two three-phase permanent magnet
alternators (1,2) which presumably are rectified to DC and then
inverted to 60Hz AC. I haven't worked on one of these generators but
motorcycles use those alternators.

I would guess that one of the alternators must put out enough voltage
at idle, the other is more efficient at high speed. The stepping motor
(21) might control the throttle. The bottom part of the schematic is
the engine ignition.

jsw
Thanks for the schematic, although I didn't get an answer. Item #5 the
control unit could have rectifiers and an inverter on it, but I suspect it
just
as it is labeled, control unit- it controls the engine speed depending on
load.
Thanks, Mike

 

[hamilton]

This may help:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electronics-3923/2009/1/Inverter-vs-non-inverter.htm

h

 

[amdx]

Here is the EU2000 diagram

http://www.homebrewhydro.com/eu2000/eu2000_diagram.jpg


with a paragraph at the bottom: Operating Principles describes what's
going
on in there.

Ok that tells me what's going on.
I didn't pay attention at the time but the Yamaha schematic Jim linked to
was
not an inverter generator.
z, your Honda link is an inverter generator and does rectify AC to power an
inverter.
Thanks for confirming my hunch,
Mike

 

[[email protected]]

Look at the top of page 21, "...the inverter control unit..."

.... or on the product page
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/products/modelfeatures/442/0/features.aspx
"Inverter System with Pulse Width Modulation - Industry-leading system
produces higher-quality and cleaner electricity. Results in pure sine
wave as clean or cleaner than commercial power and can operate
products with built in microcomputers", or at its name, "Inverter
EF1000iS".

Wayne

 

[vaughn]

The not-nice thing about them is that inverters burn up because of peak loads,
where old-style generators burnt up because of long-term loads. So an inverter
generator, unless designed with more inverter than necessary to meet the
advertised specification, will just click off (or fry) on overload, instead of
gracefully sagging.

I suppose that happens occasionally, but in practice they are made with
protective circuitry. I loaned out my EU-2000 to my father who promptly
connected it to a shorted out cord. (Much to my consternation, because I had
heard that same story)

All that happened was the thing stopped putting out power until reset and
restarted. Then all was well.

Vaughn

 

[amdx]

...
I didn't pay attention at the time but the Yamaha schematic Jim linked to
was
not an inverter generator.....
Mike

Look at the top of page 21, "...the inverter control unit.

Sorry, I'm not finding that, either on the page labeled 21 or on pdf page
21.
Any help??
Mike

 

[Tim Williams]

And I'd like him to find me the transformer in a ceiling fan ... or find
a PC that doesn't use a "power transformer" in its power supply:

"If you have equipment that can deal with these pseudo-sine waves, that's
the way to go as they are very efficient. Most electronics have no problem
with this, as they take the line and make it into DC right away anyway.
Like a compact fluorescent bulb, or a PC. But some appliances have a
problem with this, in particular anything with a power transformer in it,
like an older microwave oven or stereo amp or fluorescent tube fixture or
ceiling fan."

Transformer, as in, line voltage goes to a winding around a core. SMPS don't have a transformer at the input, they have a bunch of stuff inbetween. Physically, motors are just as transformery as transformers, though it's certainly a misnomer to be calling them such!

Someone should make incredibly cheap VFDs suitable for running shaded pole type motors and legacy transformerized equipment, then convert the entire house to DC. Way better power factor for all those SMPS's...

....Of course, then your 120/240V switchable supplies all croak, which is still most computers.

Tim

 

[Bruce in alaska]

This is the manual for the Yamaha EF1000:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/service/manuals/0/LIT-19626-01-19_1109.pdf

The schematic at the end shows two three-phase permanent magnet
alternators (1,2) which presumably are rectified to DC and then
inverted to 60Hz AC. I haven't worked on one of these generators but
motorcycles use those alternators.

I would guess that one of the alternators must put out enough voltage
at idle, the other is more efficient at high speed. The stepping motor
(21) might control the throttle. The bottom part of the schematic is
the engine ignition.

jsw

Hey Guys, Just a NOTE here: ALL Electrical Generators produce their
power in AC, PERIOD. What you think of as DC Generators have Commutators
that convert the AC from the windings, mechanically to DC, coming off
the Commutator Brushes. In the Inverter/Generator case, the Main Genend
Windings, are 3 Phase AC that is rectified, to DC and then feed into the
DC input of the Main 60 Hz Inverter. If the load Power is more than the
DC Input to the Inverter Section then the CPU Controller ramps up the
Throttle on the Engine to provide the required Power for the load. this
way the engine only provides just enough power to satisfy the load on
the output of the inverter, thus saving fuel, and machinery wear. Great
concept but give me a nice old Diesel 1800 RPM Genset any day.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Transformer, as in, line voltage goes to a winding around a core. SMPS don't have a transformer at the input, they have a bunch of stuff inbetween. Physically, motors are just as transformery as transformers, though it's certainly a misnomer to be calling them such!

Someone should make incredibly cheap VFDs suitable for running shaded pole type motors and legacy transformerized equipment, then convert the entire house to DC. Way better power factor for all those SMPS's...

...Of course, then your 120/240V switchable supplies all croak, which is still most computers.

Tim

Hm... I havn't bought one with a switch for quite a while.

Maybe most (all?) of the ones with active PFC are universal input?

 

[[email protected]]

Look at the top of page 21, "...the inverter control unit.

Sorry, I'm not finding that, either on the page labeled 21 or on pdf page
21.
Any help??
Mike

pg 8 - "economy control switch" section explains variable rpm while
loaded, the hallmark of an inverter equipped generator.

Wayne

 

[amdx]

pg 8 - "economy control switch" section explains variable rpm while
loaded, the hallmark of an inverter equipped generator.

Wayne

For what it's worth, Yamaha make an EF1000 and an EF1000iS
Nowhere in the manual below do I see the words inverter generator,
but I do agree there is some evidence to support the idea that it is.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/service/manuals/0/LIT-19626-01-19_1109.pdf

EF1000
http://www.generatorfacts.com/yamaha1.htm
EF1000iS
http://www.generatorfacts.com/yamaha2.htm
Mike

 

[[email protected]]

For what it's worth, Yamaha make an EF1000 and an EF1000iS
Nowhere in the manual below do I see the words inverter generator,

The model # on the title page is clearly the inverter version, and the
schematic shows a stepper throttle control.

but I do agree there is some evidence to support the idea that it is.

Are you from Missouri?

Wayne

 

[amdx]

The model # on the title page is clearly the inverter version, and the
schematic shows a stepper throttle control.


Are you from Missouri?

Wayne

Just a little healthy skepticism mixed with an interest to know.
Here I wasn't skeptical enough.
My new stainless steel glove $7.99
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1013362.jpg
The stainless part
http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp37/Qmavam/P1013361.jpg
0.00125" thick
Mike

 

[Tim Williams]

Many such supplies will work off of high-voltage DC directly, I'm told.

But it has to be 320VDC, not 160. Actually, that'll probably blow one capacitor (and might reverse the other one!).

I can't imagine PFC supplies would have a problem, though some controllers may get confused without AC input. If they stop PFC-ing, voltage drops out and you get the same problem as before. Most of those run at 400VDC link, so you'd need even more in that case.

Tim

 

[Tim Williams]

*Cough*, homopolar generator?

Tim

 

[amdx]

Look at the top of page 21, "...the inverter control unit.

Sorry, I'm not finding that, either on the page labeled 21 or on pdf page
21.
Any help??
Mike

Search for the word "inverter". I found it twice, once there and once
for connected devices.
In the Foxit pdf reader Search is under Tools.

jsw

Ok, but only one of those counted.
Mike
PS. I'm no long a skeptic.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

One of my teachers, years ago asked "What is a rotating mechanical
rectifier?".

When we gave up, he answered "A commutator and brushes".

That's funny, I thought it was a rotatary mechanical inverter. ;-)

I've never forgotten that.

Here's an easy one: What is the difference between a generator and
alternator?





mike

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Tim Williams]

Let's not get too cute. A comb or rug can generate DC electricity too.
Tesla cured us of the DC habit.

Ah ha!

But those are also AC generators, simply using electrostatic rather than magnetic induction. You still need a commutator to make DC. ;-)

Tim