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interesting article in today's paper about hybrid cars

B

Bob Peterson

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems that the promised high mileage claims for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids don't make it in real life conditions.

The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

The article claimed in reality the Honda gets mid 30s and the Toyota low to
mid 40s. A Honda spokesman admitted he gets about 40 in his.
 
M

Mark or Sue

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Peterson said:
It seems that the promised high mileage claims for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids don't make it in real life conditions.

The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

The article claimed in reality the Honda gets mid 30s and the Toyota low to
mid 40s. A Honda spokesman admitted he gets about 40 in his.


I think it is also due to the fact that the test is well defined, so you can optimize your system to
return maximum economy on this course. As far as I know, hardly any car gets what the EPA says. I've
always been close on city driving (5% short), but highway is usually short by at least 20%.

Also, the basic standard car is tested. If you choose an optional axle ratio that provides better
acceration and worse economy, the EPA numbers on the window don't take this into consideration.

I wonder what amount of initial battery charge is allowed for these hybrids when they begin their
test? I could see it having a major effect on the outcome.
 
B

Bob Peterson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mark or Sue said:
I think it is also due to the fact that the test is well defined, so you can optimize your system to
return maximum economy on this course. As far as I know, hardly any car gets what the EPA says. I've
always been close on city driving (5% short), but highway is usually short by at least 20%.

Also, the basic standard car is tested. If you choose an optional axle ratio that provides better
acceration and worse economy, the EPA numbers on the window don't take this into consideration.

I wonder what amount of initial battery charge is allowed for these hybrids when they begin their
test? I could see it having a major effect on the outcome.

The article was sort of vague about just what the main issue is, but its
clear that very few people will see anything even remotely like the claimed
gas. It seems to me the cars with the best epa ratings always seem to be
far more likely to get much less than their ratings than cars that get
better ratings. not sure really why.
 
V

Vaughn

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Peterson said:
It seems that the promised high mileage claims for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids don't make it in real life conditions.

The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

The article claimed in reality the Honda gets mid 30s and the Toyota low to
mid 40s. A Honda spokesman admitted he gets about 40 in his.

Furthermore, even if you were to get the published MPG, it is doubtful
that you would ever recover your extra investment from fuel savings at
present gas prices, especially if you consider the extra maintenance. I
believe the Honda uses NIMH batteries; don't know what Toyota is using but
it won't be cheap. From my experience (thousands of radios, not cars) NIMH
batteries are good for about two years. How much does Honda charge for that
battery?


Vaughn
 
B

Bob Peterson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn said:
Furthermore, even if you were to get the published MPG, it is doubtful
that you would ever recover your extra investment from fuel savings at
present gas prices, especially if you consider the extra maintenance. I
believe the Honda uses NIMH batteries; don't know what Toyota is using but
it won't be cheap. From my experience (thousands of radios, not cars) NIMH
batteries are good for about two years. How much does Honda charge for that
battery?

I read somewhere the battery changeout is something like $5000, but I also
seem to recall that the batteries are covered by an extended warranty for
like 8 years. I agree that the chances of this type of technology being
economical for most people is very low at present due to the
 
J

John Hall

Jan 1, 1970
0
...
The article was sort of vague about just what the main issue is, but its
clear that very few people will see anything even remotely like the claimed
gas. It seems to me the cars with the best epa ratings always seem to be
far more likely to get much less than their ratings than cars that get
better ratings. not sure really why.

When looking into the Hondas (newsgroups etc), it seemed that the real
enthusiasts made a career of getting the most mpg ( or l/100km ) out
of them. This is probably do-able for the first few months, and I
suppose one can change one's habits to be more economical, but I doubt
that most of us would always continue to drive in the most frugal
manner. The only reason I didn't get the Insight was lack of
out-of-sight storage for my expensive toys I like to carry. Next car
will probably be the Civic hybrid, with a normal trunk/boot.

Both Honda & Toyota say they plan to make their technologies available
in a wider range of their vehicles.

Re the Honda batteries - as someone else noted, there is a really long
warranty period on them.
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Peterson said:
The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

So talk to the EPA. How do they do in city driving? I thought that
was the point where hybrids really shine.

[Waiting for the Mercedes diesel-electric hybrid!]
 
B

Ben Simons

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Peterson said:
The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway
for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently
due to
the way the epa does the testing.

So talk to the EPA. How do they do in city driving? I thought that
was the point where hybrids really shine.

[Waiting for the Mercedes diesel-electric hybrid!]

Better not, repairs, repairs, repairs. The japanese are more reliable.
 
D

Dale Farmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
DJ said:
[email protected] (Larry W4CSC) wrote in message



Actually, closer to the truth than you know. Up here in Canada, I
know of one govermental agency that owns one for propaganda...er,
"promotional" purposes. What I know of it (the Toyota one) is that it
spends FAR more time in the shop than on the road, and the majority of
the shop time is just WAITING for someone qualified to look at it (and
no, I haven't offered ;-).
I *HAVE* ridden in it, however, and it is pretty cool. That "motor
cutting out at intersections" thing takes some getting used to,
though!

Seems the problem is its hybrid nature: standard Toyota automotive
mechanics look at it like a monkey doing a math problem, and the
electrical guys stall out when they hit the first mechanical part ;-).

Of course, maybe in Sunny California, they're a great idea. In
Canada, they're a bad joke...

DJ

I rented one for a weekend drive in 2001. ( Boston to Philly and
back ) The engine stopping at the intersections was startling, but I
imagine one could get used to it. If you set your expectations to
ECONOBOX then you will probably be happy driving it. The power
steering failed on me twice during the trip. Rebooting the car brought
back the power steering, which was even more confusing. Couldn't
access any diagnostic messages from the console, just Error!. So that
was strike two. The price was rather high, so strike three. When one
I rented from a dealership had that level of problems, I wasn't
interested in buying one the first model year.

--Dale
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems that the promised high mileage claims for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids don't make it in real life conditions.

The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

The article claimed in reality the Honda gets mid 30s and the Toyota low to
mid 40s. A Honda spokesman admitted he gets about 40 in his.

But they cut down pollution levels in congested cities.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems that the promised high mileage claims for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids don't make it in real life conditions.

The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

The article claimed in reality the Honda gets mid 30s and the Toyota low to
mid 40s. A Honda spokesman admitted he gets about 40 in his.

Well if the epa if flawed, it is flawed for all models they test. So the
fuel consumption "differential" between the hybrids and normal awful engined
cars is still the same. No change. It is still cheaper, and more
economical, to run a hybrid.
 
V

Vaughn

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn said:
Furthermore, even if you were to get the published MPG, it is doubtful
that you would ever recover your extra investment from fuel savings at
present gas prices,

OK, I took the time to do the math for the 2004 Civic Hybrid. The
following is ignoring financing and maintenance cost, and assuming gas at
$2.00/gallon and 50/50 city/highway miles. The question is: How many miles
will you have to drive to save $4,040 worth of gas?

The difference between the Civic Hybrid manual ($19,650) and a
comparable Civic LX ($15, 610) comes to $4,040.

The Hybrid gets a 50/50 EPA gas mileage of 48.5 mpg. $2.00/48.5 gives you a
fuel cost of 4.123 cents per mile.
The Civic LX gets a 50/50 EPA gas mileage of 35 mpg. $2.00/35 gives you a
fuel cost of 5.71 cents per mile.

The difference is 1.5905 cents per mile.

Simple division tells you that you will have to travel 253,996 miles to
break even on fuel costs alone.

Is that likely to happen?

Vaughn
 
V

Vaughn

Jan 1, 1970
0
News said:
Well if the epa if flawed, it is flawed for all models they test. So the
fuel consumption "differential" between the hybrids and normal awful engined
cars is still the same. No change. It is still cheaper, and more
economical, to run a hybrid.

Sorry but you are wrong, at least considering US fuel and vehicle
costs. Assuming 50/50 city/Highway driving, the difference in fuel expense
is 1.5 cents per mile. You have to drive some 67 miles just to save one
dollar. Ignoring extra maintenance and extra finance expense, at current US
fuel costs it would take over 250,000 miles to reach breakeven in a Civic
Hybrid compared to a comparable Civic. See my recent post where I do the
math. Civics are great cars and I love mine, but I would guess that most of
them never see 200,000 miles before they see the junkyard.

I would be interested in how that same comparison comes out in the UK.

Vaughn
 
K

Ken Finney

Jan 1, 1970
0
News said:
Well if the epa if flawed, it is flawed for all models they test. So the
fuel consumption "differential" between the hybrids and normal awful engined
cars is still the same. No change. It is still cheaper, and more
economical, to run a hybrid.

Maybe not. I'm not sure if the test method has a way of calculating
the mileage properly: what happens if the hybrid starts out with a
full battery and uses one gallon to go 50 miles but only has a half
full battery at the end. Does it get credit for 50 miles a gallon, or
does the gasoline needed to fully recharge the battery factor into
the equation? Does anyone know for sure?
 
B

Bob Peterson

Jan 1, 1970
0
News said:
Well if the epa if flawed, it is flawed for all models they test. So the
fuel consumption "differential" between the hybrids and normal awful engined
cars is still the same. No change. It is still cheaper, and more
economical, to run a hybrid.

Most people I know of with more normal vehicles get very close to what the
epa ratings suggest, usually within a few mpg. but it seems for the very
high mpg rated vehicles the epa ratings often are way out of wack with
reality, but when you get down to more normal cars, they seem to come back.

My guess is that any money saved on fuel will be eaten up 5 fold by the
extra cost. if fuel economy is you bag, get some other rice burner, and
forget these things for now. Down the road I see a lot of promise, but
right now it isn't there yet.
 
M

Michael Baugh

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here's what I know for sure. In 1984 my wife and I drove our
new (1983) Nissan Sentra on vacation to Hendersonville, NC
from Lexington, KY. Full tank, to the neck on all fillups. Vacuum
gauge to help optimize fuel. We got 59.13 miles per gallon with
that 5-speed, 1.6 liter engine.
Later on, it was hard to decide to change plugs when we were
'only' getting 53 mpg. So I'm not yet impressed by the hybrids.
Give me an econobox, with a minimum of amenities, and I'll use
it for its purpose, which is transportation with a minimum of extra
feedings.
 
B

Bill H

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems that the promised high mileage claims for the Toyota and Honda
hybrids don't make it in real life conditions.

The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently due to
the way the epa does the testing.

The article claimed in reality the Honda gets mid 30s and the Toyota low to
mid 40s. A Honda spokesman admitted he gets about 40 in his.

I have a 2001 Toyota Prius and you can get good milage on it in warm
weather, especially if you drive it right.

In a Chicago winter the milage is like you said - low to middle 40's (even
30's sometimes). The engine runs more often to heat up the engine coolant
for the heater, etc. The battery seems to run better when its warm out as
well.

The summer is a different story, you can get it into the 50's. My highest
mpg was 56 for a tank. You can't 'gun' the gas and use lots of brakes.
Even with regenerative braking, you only capture a part of the energy.
I find I am much better off not speeding up to a red light and hitting
the brakes, but looking ahead and timing the lights. Sort of drive it
like you are about to run out of gas and want to drift as far as you can
go. It takes practice to get the feel of where the prius wants to jump to
the gas engine from the electric battery. The prius has an instantaneous
gas-milage readout that helps train the driver what to do to maximize
milage.

I don't think I will ever buy another regular gas-only car again.

-Bill
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
A vw jetta running veggie oil gets a realworld 50mpg. What's the big deal
with these little gas burners?

--
Steve Spence
Renewable energy and sustainable living
http://www.green-trust.org
Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive
a copy of Joshua Tickell's "From the Fryer to
the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of
biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Peterson said:
Most people I know of with more normal vehicles get very close to what the
epa ratings suggest, usually within a few mpg. but it seems for the very
high mpg rated vehicles the epa ratings often are way out of wack with
reality, but when you get down to more normal cars, they seem to come back.

My guess is that any money saved on fuel will be eaten up 5 fold by the
extra cost. if fuel economy is you bag, get some other rice burner, and
forget these things for now. Down the road I see a lot of promise, but
right now it isn't there yet.

I think you are losing sight of what these cars prime aims are: to reduce
emissions in congested cities. They do this very well indeed. BTW, a hybrid
is except from the £5 central London congestion charge. Each time you enter
the centre, your number plate is read and you have to pay £5, if you do not
pay that day the charge rises, and if you just do not pay a prosecution is
issued. If you need to constantly go in and out over a day then this £5
can mount up over a year. Then the Hybrids make a lots of sense in more
ways than one.
 
B

Ben Simons

Jan 1, 1970
0
The promised 47 city/48 highway for the Honda and 60 city/51 highway
for the
Toyota are seriously overstated for real life conditions, apparently
due to
the way the epa does the testing.

So talk to the EPA. How do they do in city driving? I thought that
was the point where hybrids really shine.

[Waiting for the Mercedes diesel-electric hybrid!]

Better not, repairs, repairs, repairs. The japanese are more reliable.
Count the number of 1970s Toyotas you see next week.

Count the number of 1970s Mercedes you see next week.

Ask yourself why you don't see any 70's Toyotas.

This could be. I do not know wheter Toyota is reliable or not.
But you will surely agree, if you own a Mercedes, then you are a bit a
VIP. "wow, he has a mercedes, the people say". You won't hear it with a
Toyota. This will help anybody to repair his old Merc more likely than an
old Toyota.

Second, I know arabs who life here and buy ANY Japanese car for exporting
them to the third world. They can make a good deal with them. They do not
want german cars. Because they can't sell them.

Third, from time to time I see tests about reability of cars. The first
are always Japanese.

Fourth, I was recently sitting with two car mechanics eating dinner. One
was from Honda. One from Mercedes. The Honda guy just said: "Our cars are
extremly reliable. I'm wondering why the people don't buy more! Mercedes
has a long guarantee-time but during this time they have to change many
many parts, which the customer never hears of. We at Honda just change the
oil filter, and that's it. Everything works fine." The Mercedes guy, just
nodded his head. He had nothing to say against that...
 
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