Infinity crossover coil value

[Arny Krueger]

People still use the term "ring out" to test wiring.

A crossover coil is not a telephone line.

I did not start this thread to be argumentative.

Can't change your basic nature, can you Bob?

As was pointed out, I tried to approach you in a tactful way, and you went
off on a tear.


" Arny was gracious enough to admit he had never heard of a ring
test, therefore could not be expected to know.
Now that may be surprising, but hardly a hanging offence."

Although any thread with Arny in it seems to end up this way.

Nonesense Bob. I've had tens of thousands of pleasant interchanges with 100s
if not 1000s of people. The problem here is you and your bad attitude, which
is your fault, not mine.

In the next sentence you try to rekindle the argument, as you continue to
avoid taking responsibilitity for your own communication problems by blaming
me.

Arny as the only one who seemed to not know about what a coil ring test
was and to make a bone
about it.

Not true.


"...most people have never heard of it..."

But thanks Bob for showing yourself to be a liar, as well as a person who
can't take responsibilty for his own actions.

Sencore is well known in the service industry for
specialized service test equipment.

So what? Over the years they've marketed 100s if not thousands of different
products. Their market is primarily the service industry, starting out with
radio and TV service.

Anybody can google it or go to their web site for further information.

Currently about 120 different products, none of which has the word "ring" in
its name.

What i originally said was:

"I tried to read the coil on my sencore, and it measures
about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i
know turns are shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value
of this coil?"

Bob, you yourself admit that a ring test is primarily a test of
communication lines. Here's a news flash - communications lines use
inductors as loading coils. In the context of a speaker, this does not make
a lot of sense.

So the words Sencore, coil, ring, test are all there.

As stated they form a mystery, not a masterpiece of effective communication
skills.

Just maybe not in the order that Arny would like.

Here's some news flashes for you Bob - if you want help try not to write
mysteries, and when people try to treat you tactfully, don't spit on them.
I tried to treat you with kid gloves and here you are again gratuitously
attacking me. How Phildo-like of you.

 

[Bob Urz]

A crossover coil is not a telephone line.




Can't change your basic nature, can you Bob?

As was pointed out, I tried to approach you in a tactful way, and you went
off on a tear.


" Arny was gracious enough to admit he had never heard of a ring
test, therefore could not be expected to know.
Now that may be surprising, but hardly a hanging offence."




Nonesense Bob. I've had tens of thousands of pleasant interchanges with 100s
if not 1000s of people. The problem here is you and your bad attitude, which
is your fault, not mine.

In the next sentence you try to rekindle the argument, as you continue to
avoid taking responsibilitity for your own communication problems by blaming
me.




Not true.


"...most people have never heard of it..."

But thanks Bob for showing yourself to be a liar, as well as a person who
can't take responsibilty for his own actions.




So what? Over the years they've marketed 100s if not thousands of different
products. Their market is primarily the service industry, starting out with
radio and TV service.




Currently about 120 different products, none of which has the word "ring" in
its name.




Bob, you yourself admit that a ring test is primarily a test of
communication lines. Here's a news flash - communications lines use
inductors as loading coils. In the context of a speaker, this does not make
a lot of sense.




As stated they form a mystery, not a masterpiece of effective communication
skills.




Here's some news flashes for you Bob - if you want help try not to write
mysteries, and when people try to treat you tactfully, don't spit on them.
I tried to treat you with kid gloves and here you are again gratuitously
attacking me. How Phildo-like of you.

So days after the thread, did you wife kick you out of bed and you woke
up with a bad attitude? Still no technical answers out of you Arny.

I am sorry for your lack of some technical knowledge. For techies
and people in the repair industry coil ring tests are common knowledge.
Sencore test equipment and usage are common knowledge.
And "ringing out a line" has been known for years too. Common word
"ring", different usage in the industry. That term probably originated
with telephone companies who tested lines for current draw and the
"ringer" ringing. Phones don't have bells anymore like the old days
for the most part, but they don have a ringer equivalence rating.



The only "MYSTERY" here Arny, was the value of the coil. If you don't
know something, don't try to bullshit your way through a thread.
Like you obviously have many times in the past. And this thread is
posted in a electronics repair group. Where people KNOW what a coil
ring test is. And know what test equipment is and how it works.

I am going to order a few standard values (starting with .13) and sub
them in and see what happens with a sweep test. It would have been so
much easier just to have a good coil to measure or a schematic of the
crossover with values listed. With the coil melted, its futile to
try to rewind it. And i wanted heavier gauge wire anyway.

Bob

 

[Bob Urz]

nevermind... i see it now.




how come those bozos could give you the thiele small peramiters but not
include a simple schematic?

Who knows? The caps are listed with values (on the crossover). But the
coils are not. I would like to know how there advertising claims in the
PDF match

Bob
the circuit topology of the circuit i found on the crossover.

 

[Arny Krueger]

So days after the thread, did you wife kick you out of
bed and you woke up with a bad attitude?

No, it took me that long to find out that you were up to your usual
back-stabbing ways, Bob.

Still no technical answers out of you Arny.

That's another lie, Bob. I gave you several technical answers, the first on
1/19/2007.

I am sorry for your lack of some technical knowledge.

Bob, I've got *some technical knowlege*, just not *all* technical knowlege.
If you had more technical knowlege perhaps you'd appreciate the irony of the
current situation. ;-)

For techies and people in the repair industry coil ring tests are
common knowledge.

I've been aware of them since the mid-1950s when I read some articles about
motor rewinding in Popular Science or Popular Mechanics. Please pardon me if
I can't remember which of the two magazines it was some 50-odd years later.
Thing is, I've gone many a decade without having to contend with shorted
turn problems so I'm a tad rusty in that department.

Sencore test equipment and usage are common knowledge.

If one stays away from TV shops, one tends to not see Sencore test
equipment. Heck, I used to both use and sell the stuff when I worked in that
Lafayette Radio store when I was a teen. But that was more like 45 years
ago, and not every thing I ever did is exactly in the front of my mind.

And "ringing out a line" has been known for years too.
Common word "ring", different usage in the industry. That
term probably originated with telephone companies who tested lines for
current
draw and the "ringer" ringing. Phones don't have bells
anymore like the old days for the most part, but they don have a ringer
equivalence
rating.

As usual Bob, what you find interesting and novel is old hat to some more
experienced hands.

... do't try to bullshit your way through a
thread.

Letsee Bob I've caught you in three rather obvious lies related to this
thread, so who is it that's B-Sing?

LOL!

 

[TimPerry]

Who knows? The caps are listed with values (on the crossover). But the
coils are not. I would like to know how there advertising claims in
the
PDF match

Bob
the circuit topology of the circuit i found on the crossover.

well output would be low if L has become R.. but i'll bet ya the tweeters
are fried or half fried too.


i know it will affect the x-over somewhat but i would consider adding a
small series resistor once the coil value has been determined. just to
reduce the possibility of a callback.... or maybe a diac (back to back
zeners) across it.

 

[Bob Urz]

well output would be low if L has become R.. but i'll bet ya the tweeters
are fried or half fried too.


i know it will affect the x-over somewhat but i would consider adding a
small series resistor once the coil value has been determined. just to
reduce the possibility of a callback.... or maybe a diac (back to back
zeners) across it.

Actually, it has a network that puts 1 to 4 ohms in series with the
tweeter to reduce the level. I just left that out of the diagram.

Bob

 

[Peter Larsen]

I would like to know how there advertising claims in the
PDF match

Their claim holds for the first octave downwards as far as the tweeter
is concerned, the usual expectation is that a cross-over spec holds
water until 20 dB down and they clearly specify it to be about acoustic
output. You give the impression of having understood the x-over spec to
be about the output voltage from of the x-over rather than about
acheived acoustic output?

The pdf you linked to does contain a graph of x-over output voltage as
well as driver output spl, so yes, you do not know the exact value of
the coil, but you do have a target curve to compare to. As it probably
is a stereo system you also have a non-defunct x-over, unless I missed
you somewhere saying that both sides were damaged.

Bob

Regards

Peter Larsen

 

[TimPerry]

i know it will affect the x-over somewhat but i would consider

Actually, it has a network that puts 1 to 4 ohms in series with the
tweeter to reduce the level. I just left that out of the diagram.

Bob

i meant one in series with the fried coil. the car owner will surely crank
up the tunes to try to autodestruct it the very first thing.

 

[Arny Krueger]

I tried to read the coil on my sencore,
and it measures about .3 MH. It won't pass any ring test (air core) so i
know turns are shorted and this value is suspect. Any clue on the value
of this coil?

Probably pretty much what you measured Bob. Shorted turns ruin the Q of the
coil, but crossovers aren't usually exactly what we'd call high-Q circuits.
The fact that the coil measures out with an inductance that is in the same
range as the other coil in the circuit suggests that what you measured is a
fairly believable number. Since you've been provided the spectral response
of the voltage across the driver, you have the means to verify the
effectivness of the replacement coil.

 

[Bob Urz]

BOB Urz wrote:




Passive network transfer function, as I understand it when loaded with
actual loudspeaker load, is available in the .pdf you linked to. A few
trial and error substitions should lead to the correct coil value. You
really have to verify that the units are OK anyway.





Regards

Peter Larsen

I finally got the passive crossover design 5.1.xls to work on the
computer. I had to download a program to remove spread sheet protection
and it allowed me to substitute values in. It seems the .13 value is
pretty close if i can believe the plotted values. I have some coils
on order now to try. I used the 15.7 and 14ufd values as fixed values
and subbed the coil values in and it plotted the curves.


Bob

Bob

 

[Peter Larsen]

I finally got the passive crossover design 5.1.xls to work on the
computer. I had to download a program to remove ....

Thanks you! - nice to know the outcome.


Regards

Peter Larsen