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"Improving" a Modified Sine Wave

G

Graham Parkinson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Has anyone experimented with RLC filtering the output from a simple modified
sine wave inverter?

I have to run a "computerized" Makita 24V drill "smart" charger from my
"Statpower Prowatt cigarette lighter" style inverter and was wondering if
the charger will not deal well with the stepped output.

The only other option is to find a small inexpensive portable true sine wave
inverter.

(We are testing the concrete liner inside an 8km long water supply tunnel at
several places - the tunnel is too long for an extension cord. I have 3
drill batteries but will have a little "shopping cart" with some big 12V
batteries for other testing gear and can run an inverter off them.

Graham
 
N

Nelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nothing40 said:
"Graham Parkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message


I was wondering about some kind of LC,RC,etc filter myself,just a
couple weeks ago. I wonder if those EMF/RFI filters would do anything?
Does anybody have any info on this? I was thinking of something you
could plug into the inverter,and plug "sensitive" stuff into,like a
"filtered" power strip.
My only other thought was to modify the output stage of the inverter
to output a sine wave,erm,it could be done if ya know what you're
doing,but probably not very easy.

Maybe like a 200uf cap,and 3H choke as a starting point? I dunno.
One other consideration is loss in the filter,and (ermm,whats it
called...it's late.) basically the amount of power the filter can let
through to the load,has to do with the impedance(s) and Q and whatnot.

Any info on something to make the output of "modified sine wave"
inverters more like a real sine wave,and filter those nasty harmonics
would be awesome. ;-)

I'm almost completed with my first 12V input PC power supply
prototype.
*fingers crossed* I hope it works! It started life as a normal 230W AT
PSU!

Graham, "Nothing 40"...
I'm running a Trace DR inverter in a remote cottage location, and have a
lot of trouble with the RF hash. Here's my experience.

1) I put a cap, about .1 uf, across the output. It reduced the hash a
bit, but not a long time later I had to replace the output FETs. There may
be no cause/effect connection, but still I suspect the FETs were seeing a
short across the cap for at least the leading edge of the square wave, and
it may have toasted them without kicking a breaker. So I would definitely
use an inductor input filter, trying it again.

2) I put up a sizeable building using all screws last summer, and the
main tool was a DeWalt rechargeable drill. It charged quickly and well, and
never faltered.

3) There's a 486 computer out at that little log cabin running off the
inverter. Not a hickup.

4) Finally resorted to setting up a remote antenna with a shielded cable
back to the cabin for the radios. At least we can listen when the stations
are on daytime power.

Cheers,
Nelson
 
L

Luc Collin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Graham,

You will spend lots of time and money to develop a reliable LCR filter that
may just end up frying your inverter because it can't handle inductive
loads.

If I was in your shoes, I would just invest in a true sine inverter and
protect my tools. A modified sine wave will be hard on your charger.

But if you do insist on developing LCR filter for your inverter, get
guidance from Xantrex. It will be hard to develop anything without knowing
the output impedance profile of the inverter (both time and frequency
domain).

Luc Collin
 
L

Luc Collin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Guess work with filters will end up frying something.

To develop a filter you will need to analyse the frequency profile of the
inverter to figure out what needs to be filtered.

Once this is known, you need to figure out which order of filter that needs
to be used. The higher the order the lossier the filter will be, but the
cleaner the signal.

I would investigate first and second order filter. The problem with a first
order will be a larger inductor that will be needed to handle the relatively
large power in the harmonics plus the attenuation can only be -20db/decade
(may not be enough to clip the primary harmonic).

The second order filter needs to be looked at. The problem with a second
order (and larger) are your zeros and poles in the frequency domain (points
where frequency will have constructive cancellation) and may make the whole
thing unstable and fry something. Added to this will be the added loss on an
extra inductor plus misc. components.

You may even need a stiffer filter than that. I would guess that the 120Hz
or 240Hz harmonics will contain 90% of the power associated with harmonics.
My guess is that you will need a filter that drop at least 80db at 80Hz or
90Hz to effectively clip the first harmonic. *cringe*

I will not bother disscussing the cost of equipment you will need to find to
be able to develop you filter.

IMO it is just not worth the time and effort to develop a filter unless you
want to go in business with such a product. I am not convinced that it would
give a competitive advantage over a true sine inverter.

Good luck with your power supply, those are always fun to tinker around
with...

-Luc
 
B

boB

Jan 1, 1970
0
2) I put up a sizeable building using all screws last summer, and the
main tool was a DeWalt rechargeable drill. It charged quickly and well, and
never faltered.

If you made the DeWalt charger work with a modified square wave, then
you did very good I would say ! Those usually break when plugged into
one of those kind of inverters...

Good luck on filtering though. You may be able to reduce the
harmonics, but you will significantly decrease the power level of the
inverter as well. It just doesn't work too well. We tried doing
just that years ago while at Trace. Don't want to discourage you
though. You just might make it work !
Keep us posted !

boB
 
J

Jeff

Jan 1, 1970
0
boB said:
If you made the DeWalt charger work with a modified square wave, then
you did very good I would say ! Those usually break when plugged into
one of those kind of inverters...

The newer (really light weight) ones run off of a triac (as far as I know),
which uses the firing angle with a AC sine wave to regulate voltage and
current. A modified square wave is not a good wave to try and use a firing
angle method of control. Older ones may have been transformer based, which
would have little problem handling a modified sine wave)
Good luck on filtering though. You may be able to reduce the
harmonics, but you will significantly decrease the power level of the
inverter as well. It just doesn't work too well. We tried doing
just that years ago while at Trace. Don't want to discourage you
though. You just might make it work !
Keep us posted !

Having designed a small 350 W sine wave inverter, I'm also going to say good
luck on filtering a square/modified sine wave. You can reduce the harmonics,
but to filter it to a sine under all conditions at high power levels is a
dream that's not likely to come true. To get a good, high efficiency sine
wave, under changing conditions, you need to synthesize it with PWM (there
are analog ways to do it, but at a large efficiency loss).


It probably prefers a square/modified wave! It is a switch mode power supply
after all!
 
N

Nelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
boB said:
If you made the DeWalt charger work with a modified square wave, then
you did very good I would say ! Those usually break when plugged into
one of those kind of inverters...

Good luck on filtering though. You may be able to reduce the
harmonics, but you will significantly decrease the power level of the
inverter as well. It just doesn't work too well. We tried doing
just that years ago while at Trace. Don't want to discourage you
though. You just might make it work !
Keep us posted !

boB

boB,
Mind telling us what you tried? I'm not trying to make a sine wave out
of a sow's ear, but I'd like at least to get the harmonics out of the
broadcast band someday! The inverter works well in all other respects,
even, to my amazement, variable speed drills and an old one-horse induction
motor.
This is a Trace DR3624. The extent of the harmonics surprised me,
especially since it seems (I could be wrong) to have a transformer output.
I put an oscilloscope on it once, and the spike on the leading edge was
several times taller than the waveform.
Nelson
 
J

Jeff

Jan 1, 1970
0
boB,
Mind telling us what you tried? I'm not trying to make a sine wave out
of a sow's ear, but I'd like at least to get the harmonics out of the
broadcast band someday! The inverter works well in all other respects,
even, to my amazement, variable speed drills and an old one-horse induction
motor.
This is a Trace DR3624. The extent of the harmonics surprised me,
especially since it seems (I could be wrong) to have a transformer output.
I put an oscilloscope on it once, and the spike on the leading edge was
several times taller than the waveform.

That does not seem right - maybe a snubber network inside the unit died?
 
G

Graham Parkinson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for all the intelligent commentary on the details of trapping the non
sinuosoidal bits of "modified sine waves". I gather that it is not likely
feasible to improve the output much.

Of course the other option for charging cordless tools are the 12V
chargers - I bought one that recharges my Bosch 24V tool batteries quite
nicely off of 12V battery power.

However I haven't seen them yet for the new Makita 24V batteries.

Any reccomendations for a small (300W) 12V pure sinewave inverter? How
about the bright yellow GO-Power SW300? This looks like a nice unit (priced
about $229)

Graham
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Graham Parkinson said:
Has anyone experimented with RLC filtering the output from a simple modified
sine wave inverter?

I have to run a "computerized" Makita 24V drill "smart" charger from my
"Statpower Prowatt cigarette lighter" style inverter and was wondering if
the charger will not deal well with the stepped output.

The only other option is to find a small inexpensive portable true sine wave
inverter.

(We are testing the concrete liner inside an 8km long water supply tunnel at
several places - the tunnel is too long for an extension cord. I have 3
drill batteries but will have a little "shopping cart" with some big 12V
batteries for other testing gear and can run an inverter off them.

Graham

Get a battery drill of between 7 an d 12 volts. Chuck the battery. Stick
a lead on it. Run off the 12V batteries you are taking with you on your
cart.

My drills will run for two weeks or more on an 18 ah 12v battery.

George
 
S

Scott Willing

Jan 1, 1970
0
That does not seem right - maybe a snubber network inside the unit died?

Or the probe compensation was not adjusted.

When a measurement seems too far out of whack, don't forget to
question the instrument.

-=s
 
S

Scott Willing

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't have the original post so forgive me for commenting here.

If this something like the switch-mode Makita charger I bought with my
last drill, it will actually be much happier with this inverter than
the old transformer-based chargers were. Just like typical computer
power supplies etc. - not only do they not care about sine vs modified
sine, they would be just as happy with 110VDC.

I know the DeWalt's are notorious for going up in smoke though.

Probably unnecessary.
I was wondering about some kind of LC,RC,etc filter myself,just a
couple weeks ago. I wonder if those EMF/RFI filters would do anything?

They're intended to take out high frequency interference, whereas the
distortion components of a modified square wave inverter go way down
to the third harmonic. They will do *something* but probably not what
you'd hoped.
Does anybody have any info on this? I was thinking of something you
could plug into the inverter,and plug "sensitive" stuff into,like a
"filtered" power strip.

I've often thought the same thing, but the only way I could see
pulling it off would involve LC filtering and a step-up transformer,
since any useful amount of filtering would reduce the RMS voltage
delivered.
My only other thought was to modify the output stage of the inverter
to output a sine wave,erm,it could be done if ya know what you're
doing,but probably not very easy.

If you value your time, you'd be better off to purchase!
Maybe like a 200uf cap,and 3H choke as a starting point?

If you want to experiment, use two chokes, with one choke from each
output terminal to one side of the load, and the cap directly across
the load.
I dunno.
One other consideration is loss in the filter,and (ermm,whats it
called...it's late.) basically the amount of power the filter can let
through to the load,has to do with the impedance(s) and Q and whatnot.

Remove components of the input waveform and you reduce the RMS value
of the output, yep.
Any info on something to make the output of "modified sine wave"
inverters more like a real sine wave,and filter those nasty harmonics
would be awesome. ;-)

Although modified sine has significantly reduced harmonic distortion
compared to a square wave, the first significant harmonic is the third
(180Hz assuming 60Hz output) so I suppose the ideal filter would be a
brick wall at around 100Hz. :)

You can certainly take the edges off with a more realistic filter, but
if you do enough filtering to be reasonably effective, you're going to
run up against the voltage problem.

Now, what I'd REALLY like to know is the nature of a Trace device that
came and went several years ago, called the COSINE. I have it listed
as a "new" item in a supplier catalogue from 1997. "Use it with
modified sine wave inverters and get pure sine output," it says. No
power rating quoted, around US$350 at the time, and about 10lbs.
Intended for critical devices (like your filtered power bar idea) it
did not claim to globally "convert" the output of the inverter.

What could it have been but a whacking LC filter with a voltage boost?

From time to time I've mentioned this gizmo but it's hard to find
anyone who had even heard of the thing. Seems to me one fellow did
perk up once and mentioned power handling in the 600W range, but that
could be an invented memory.

But these days you *can* get a 600W sine inverter for that kind of
money.

-=s
 
E

Ecnerwal

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've often guessed that a big honking isolation transformer might do a
good job of converting MSW to SW, but I'm a good 12 years or so past the
last place where I had easy access to big honking isolation transformers
and oscilloscopes without spending a good bit of my own money. I'd guess
you'd want a transformer rated a good bit above where you'd be running
it, as the MSW input would tend to heat the transformer more than clean
SW input.

Naturally, there would be the loss of the transformer to cope with,
making a true SW inverter a better bet for systems which need minimal
loss / maximal conservation.
 
B

boB

Jan 1, 1970
0
Now, what I'd REALLY like to know is the nature of a Trace device that
came and went several years ago, called the COSINE. I have it listed
as a "new" item in a supplier catalogue from 1997. "Use it with
modified sine wave inverters and get pure sine output," it says. No
power rating quoted, around US$350 at the time, and about 10lbs.
Intended for critical devices (like your filtered power bar idea) it
did not claim to globally "convert" the output of the inverter.

What could it have been but a whacking LC filter with a voltage boost?

From time to time I've mentioned this gizmo but it's hard to find
anyone who had even heard of the thing. Seems to me one fellow did
perk up once and mentioned power handling in the 600W range, but that
could be an invented memory.


Ahhh.. the old Co-Sine unit that Milt Rice (the engineer that
designed way back when. Turns out it didn't get the go ahead because
it was a bit too expensive to build. There were a few of them sent
out for Beta testing as I remember.

What it was, was a non-isolated sine wave inverter that got its power
from the rectified output from a square wave, modified square wave,
or sine wave 120 VAC output, and re-inverted that.
It was a cool idea though. Milt was very smart and had lots of great
ideas.

Milt was one of the engineers that used to work at Dynamote,
(Seattle), and designed their Brutus sine wave inverter. (bought by
Vanner). Milt died in an experimental aircraft accident soon after
the Co-sine was designed. He loved flying and experimenting with
his Thunder Gull.

Hope all had a great Christmas.
Have a great New Year too !
boB
 
P

ptaylor

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nelson said:
tunnel at



Graham, "Nothing 40"...
I'm running a Trace DR inverter in a remote cottage location, and have a
lot of trouble with the RF hash. Here's my experience.

1) I put a cap, about .1 uf, across the output. It reduced the hash a
bit, but not a long time later I had to replace the output FETs. There may
be no cause/effect connection, but still I suspect the FETs were seeing a
short across the cap for at least the leading edge of the square wave, and
it may have toasted them without kicking a breaker. So I would definitely
use an inductor input filter, trying it again.

Actually,most AT/ATX style PC power supplies have a cap right across the
input jack,most of the time,I just junked a supply for parts,and snipped
a .33uf cap off the back of the IEC (?) jack.Sometimes they are located
on the board aswell,along with some other caps.I'm not sure about laptop
supplies,but I'd assume the switching type (almost all are) would have
this aswell.

I wonder if it is hard on MSW inverters,interesting..
 
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