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Discussion in 'Off-Topic Members Lounge' started by jackorocko, Sep 17, 2011.

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  1. jackorocko

    jackorocko

    1,284
    1
    Apr 4, 2010
    What I mean by the title is that I appreciate this site more now then I ever did. I recently inherited a machinist shop from my grandfather as he passed away about 7 months ago now. So I have decided to start learning the trade. Unlike electronics, There isn't as many machinist that care to take the time and teach, not to mention even allow someone like myself to join their ranks at a very informative website because I do not meet their criteria.I was extremely disappointed to find out that now I will have to do everything the hard way.

    Whatever you do here at electronics point, just keep doing it. Please don't ever screen new users and keep those away that don't meet your criteria. Please always keep the information free to those who are in search of it and are eager to learn. Please above all else, don't ever stop teaching those who wish to learn.

    Big thanks go out to steve and resquline. I appreciate the both of you now more then ever. The time you have dedicated to helping the individuals on this site is immense.

    Kind of a rant, but I assume this is the place for it... feel free to delete if I have over stepped my boundaries.
     
  2. daddles

    daddles

    443
    3
    Jun 10, 2011
    I think you just need to find the right place and you'll get enthusiastic help. I've been an amateur machinist most of my life, but I pursued a different career. Thus, I had to teach myself through reading and experimenting. It's been fun. I have a few horror stories too -- but they turned into powerful lessons. :)

    There's a lot of information about machinist work out there on the web. I taught myself by finding books/magazines, reading them, then experimenting in the shop. One classic is "Modern Machine Shop", but realize it dates to the 19th century. An enormous source of information is google books: both the magazines like Pop Sci/Pop Mech as well as books from the early 20th century. There's little in the machinist's trade that wasn't known then, at least for non-CNC or exotic materials-type stuff.

    I'd be happy to talk about any questions you have, so either ask in the forum or send me a PM.

    Here's a list of the ebook stuff I have on my computer; it's all free out there on the web:

    Modern machine shop:
    0-toc_vol1.pdf
    0-toc_vol2.pdf
    1-Teeth_of_gear_wheels.pdf
    10-Cutting_tools_for_lathes.pdf
    11-Drilling_and_boring_in_lathe.pdf
    12-Examples_in_lathe_work.pdf
    13-Examples_in_lathe_work.pdf
    14-Measuring_machines.pdf
    15-Measuring_tools.pdf
    16-Shaping_and_planing_machines.pdf
    17-Planing_machinery.pdf
    18-Drilling_machines.pdf
    19-Drills_and_cutters.pdf
    2-Teeth_of_gear_wheels_-_cams.pdf
    20-Hand_drilling.pdf
    21-Thread_cutting.pdf
    22-Milling_machinery.pdf
    23-Grinding.pdf
    24-Gear_cutting_machines.pdf
    25-Vise_work.pdf
    26-Vise_work_continued.pdf
    27-Vise_work_continued.pdf
    28-Erecting.pdf
    29-Erecting_engines_and_machinery.pdf
    3-Teeth_of_gear_wheels-continued.pdf
    30-Line_shafting.pdf
    31-Pulleys.pdf
    32-Leather_belting.pdf
    33-Forging.pdf
    34-Wood_working.pdf
    35-Wood_working_machinery.pdf
    35-Wood_working_machinery_continued.pdf
    36-Boilers.pdf
    37-The_steam_engine.pdf
    38-The_locomotive.pdf
    39-The_mechanical_powers.pdf
    4-Screw_thread.pdf
    40-The_indicator.pdf
    41-Automatic_cutoff_engines.pdf
    42-Marine_engines.pdf
    43-Marine_boilers.pdf
    44-Hardening_and_tempering.pdf
    5-Fastening_devices.pdf
    6-The_lathe.pdf
    7-Details_in_lathe_construction.pdf
    8-Special_forms_of_lathe.pdf
    9-Driving_work_in_the_lathe.pdf
    Appendix_-_dictionary_of_terms.pdf
    Appendix_-_test_questions_for_engineers.pdf
    Index.pdf

    500_Plain_Answers_to_Direct_Questions_on_Steam.pdf
    A_Manual_of_the_Hand_Lathe_Comprising_1869.pdf
    A_Manual_of_the_Hand_Lathe__Comprising_C.pdf
    A_practical_treatise_on_the_steel_square.pdf
    A_practical_treatise_on_the_steel_square_1913.pdf
    Aircraft_Mechanics_Handbook.pdf
    Aircraft_Mechanics_Handbook_1918.pdf
    Amateur_mechanics.pdf
    Amateur_mechanics_1884.pdf
    Applied_science_for_metal_workers_Dooley.pdf
    Applied_science_for_metal_workers_Dooley_1919.pdf
    Change_Gear_Devices_1903.pdf
    Drill_Press_Kinks.pdf
    Drill_Press_Kinks_1908.pdf
    Drilling_Lathe_Work_Boring_mill_Work_1901.pdf
    Drilling_Practice_and_Jig_Design_1915.pdf
    Drop_Forging__Die_Sinking_and_Machine_Forging_1911.pdf
    Ford_Methods_and_the_Ford_Shops_1915.pdf
    Gage_Design_and_Gage_making_1920.pdf
    Handbook_of_Small_Tools_1908.pdf
    Heat_treatment_of_Steel.pdf
    Hutton_handbook_1901.pdf
    Index_to_the_Geometric_Chuck.pdf
    International_Library_of_Technology.pdf
    Iron_and_Steel.pdf
    Jig_and_Fixture_Design.pdf
    Jigs_and_Fixtures.pdf
    Johnson_Rafter_Angle_Square_Manual.pdf
    Kent_1906.pdf
    Lathe_Work___Planer_Work___Shaper_and_Sl.pdf
    Machine_Shop_Calculations.pdf
    Machine_Shop_Catechism.pdf
    Machine_Shop_Primer.pdf
    Machine_Tool_Operation.pdf
    Machine_Tools_and_Their_Operation.pdf
    Machine_Tools_and_Workshop_Practice_for_.pdf
    Machine_design__construction_and_drawing.pdf
    Machinerys_Encyclopedia.pdf
    Mechanical_drawing.pdf
    Mechanical_engineering_and_machine_shop_practice.pdf
    Mechanisms_and_Mechanical_Movements_1919.pdf
    Milling_Machine_Kinks.pdf
    Modern_Toolmaking_Methods_1915.pdf
    NIST_gauge_block_handbook.pdf
    Patterns_for_Turning.pdf
    Practical_mechanics_for_boys.pdf
    Properties_of_wood.pdf
    Punches__Dies_and_Tools_for_Manufacturing.pdf
    Railroad_Shop_Practice.pdf
    Repair_Kinks.pdf
    Screw_Thread_Kinks.pdf
    Shop_Mathematics.pdf
    Shop_and_Foundry_Practice.pdf
    Simple_Decorative_Lathe_Work.pdf
    Text_book_of_Advanced_Machine_Work.pdf
    The_Advanced_Machinist.pdf
    The_American_Machinist_Shop_Note_Book.pdf
    The_Complete_Practical_Machinist.pdf
    The_Metal_Turners_Handybook.pdf
    The_Practical_Tool_maker_and_Designer.pdf
    The_Progressive_Machinist.pdf
    The_Railroad_Pocket_book.pdf
    The_Screw_cutting_Lathe.pdf
    The_watch_and_clock_makers_handbook.pdf
    Thread_cutting_Methods.pdf
    Tool_Making.pdf
    Toolmakers__Kinks.pdf
    Triangulation_applied_to_sheet_metal_pat.pdf
    Turning_and_Boring.pdf
    enginemechanical00kentrich.pdf
    navy_BasicTools.pdf
    navy_FluidPower.pdf
     
  3. jackorocko

    jackorocko

    1,284
    1
    Apr 4, 2010
    actually you got some pretty neat reading material. So let me ask you, if you knew the basics about cutting and boring, what would you recommend next?

    It is funny, I know a good broad overview of machining on a lathe and mill, but it is the details that I always come up short on. Simple things like centering work properly, proper position and type of tool needed for the job, how to set them up on the lathe properly. Like what part of the tool should be doing the cutting. Hell I could even go for some material on how the hell to grind your own HSS tools.

    Hopefully you can understand where I am at and what I need help with. Things that I already figured out, threading, doing face, surface, and bore cuts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  4. daddles

    daddles

    443
    3
    Jun 10, 2011
    A very good book is the book on lathe operation by Atlas. Sears sold it for many decades. I can't find my copy, so I can't give you the exact title. It had both useful instructions and helpful tables.

    You can learn a lot from a book like Machinery's handbook. If you don't have a copy, get an older version, as the stuff doesn't change and you can get them cheaper (buy used from Amazon). A book I like as well or better is the American Machinist's Handbook from World War 2, an amazing work. I got my copy for $14 or so from a used seller on Amazon -- a steal. They'll have tables on the tool angles you should use to help you grind your cutting tools. You'll find that you'll settle on a few tools and do most of your work with them. I don't bother with looking up stuff in books anymore -- I just grind what looks and feels about right. The tables give you the best angles for getting good production life, but for hobby stuff, things aren't so critical.

    As you've intimated, cutting things is pretty straightforward. The challenge is often in holding the work and supporting it so you don't get chatter.

    If you're willing to spend a few bucks, buy Guy Lautard's books "The Machinist's Bedside Readers". They're entertaining and packed with information -- and you'll learn lots of interesting things.

    Centering the work is interesting. Many people just use a 3 jaw chuck. I've got a nice one for my lathe (my grandfather's lathe), but I haven't put it on the lathe in over 30 years. I use collets and the 4 jaw chuck exclusively (and a faceplate I made). To do things right, you'll want to get a dial indicator and use it to determine how much runout something has. The reason I like the 4 jaw is that I can adjust the centering. You can't do that with a 3 jaw chuck unless you put shims under the jaws.

    Another thing to do is to make sure you know how to get the approximate cutting speeds for different materials. This means both surface speed and feed. When you're dealing with a material you've never cut before, you'll want to start near the low end of things.

    You can also experiment with seeing how deep of a cut you can make -- if you have a decent lathe, it can probably take a surprisingly deep cut. The key is that you need to slow things down a lot -- this means figuring out how to use the back gear of the lathe.

    The books that you can track down will have lots of ideas about holding things and doing interesting tasks on the lathe and mill.

    One of the things you may want to practice at is learning to cut off in the lathe. This is easy in soft things like brass or aluminum, but is harder in steel and can be a downright challenge in big diameter stuff and tough to machine things like stainless steel or Monel.
     
  5. davelectronic

    davelectronic

    1,087
    12
    Dec 13, 2010
    engineering

    Hi there. What a great opportunity, ive worked in machine shop environments, and am just as taken by engineering as iam electronics, the things you can make and turn out is endless, what a gift, looked after will serve more than a life time, incredible opportunity, i would love a machine shop, what you can produce from stock materials, wow amazing stuff. Dave. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  6. jackorocko

    jackorocko

    1,284
    1
    Apr 4, 2010
    Yes, daddles, I have a 3 and 4 jaw chuck for my smaller lathe and only a 4 jaw chuck with my bigger lathe. My small lathe is an antique south bend model 5 type 405-A 1934. I love the little thing to be honest. Would be hard for me to ever part with it for any amount of money.

    As for centering the work, I know a 4 jaw chuck is better since like you say you can center the work you are cutting on regardless of the straightness of the piece. I always had assumed that the time to use a 3 jaw chuck was when you planned on cutting off the piece you just cut made, so that way it made no difference as to whether the piece was perfectly centered or not. Because you will cut it straight. The time to use a 4 jaw chuck is when you need to shave something off the end of a part that will remain whole. You need to start off center and straight to end up center and straight. I also have the piece that slides onto the way to help center long stock and I know you can use the frictionless centering tool in the tailstock. I do have a dial indicator, actually quite a few. My grandfather had just about everything +1.

    Well thanks for the recommendations on the reading material. it is good to get opinions first, as I hate spending money on things I won't ever use, like books that preach about things I already know.
     
  7. daddles

    daddles

    443
    3
    Jun 10, 2011
    There were a gazillion of those lathes made and they're a timeless design. Take care of it and it will outlast you.

    An advantage of the 3 jaw chuck is that it only takes a second to chuck something up. However, as mentioned, you're limited by the inherent runout of the chuck. With a 4 jaw, you can use a dial indicator and center the workpiece pretty easily to within 0.001" TIR (total indicated readout) and get even lower TIR's when it's important. This is important when you need to chuck something up for a second operation or take it out of the chuck, measure it, then chuck it up again. Each type of chuck has its place.

    About 30 years ago I bought a set of collets and a collet closer for my lathe. I try to do everything I can on my lathe using collets and switch to the 4 jaw only when necessary. My lathe uses 5C collets, but if I had a bunch of cash, I'd sell the lathe and get one that could take collets that would let me chuck up bar stock around up to 1.5" in diameter, as this would suit my needs better. I've machined some emergency collets that let me chuck up 3/4" pipe (1.05" diameter) and that's nearly the biggest you can go with 5C collets. I use that collet quite a bit, as I can make things from 3/4" PVC pipe or steel pipe, commonly available materials.
     
  8. jackorocko

    jackorocko

    1,284
    1
    Apr 4, 2010
    Can you show me a few pictures of how these collets, faceplate, etc work? I have an idea, but I always thought you needed a tapered hole to use them correctly, or is that what the faceplate is doing?

    Pictures are worth a thousand words in these instances.
     
  9. jackorocko

    jackorocko

    1,284
    1
    Apr 4, 2010

    Yes, I just hope I can actually take the time to learn the trade. My grandfather was so knowledgeable, it was a shame that he didn't have the time to teach me all the things he had learned over his life. Let's just hope I don't disappoint!!!
     
  10. daddles

    daddles

    443
    3
    Jun 10, 2011
    As I'm a scientist, the idea of hiding information is anathemic. Alas, that's what some machinists will do when you ask them for help. If this is proprietary information of a company, then that's understandable. But if it's stuff that's been common knowledge in the trade for a century, then it's just stupid egotism (or "I want to feel important") to not share it with an interested person who asks. Unfortunately, you'll run into these human frailties... :p

    I took some pictures of some things named lathe1.jpg to lathe5.jpg. lathe5 shows my 3/4" 5C collet, which I use a lot (hence the nail polish so I can find it quickly). lathe1 shows this collet in the collet holder. Part B adapts to from my lathe's spindle (called an L00 taper nose IIRC) to an intermediate size; part A goes from this intermediate size to the 5C collet size. I bought this collet adapter set from Enco a little over 30 years ago; the design allowed them to stock fewer parts and be able to accommodate a number of different lathes. My lathe is a 12x36 Clausing.

    lathe2 shows the adapter without the collet. The part you see inside the hole is a piece of pipe that threads onto the end of the collet and pulls it into part A. This collapses the collet onto the work, holding it. lathe3 shows a home-made faceplace from some scrap aluminum plate I had laying around. There are lots of threaded holes to help hold pieces for work. lathe4 shows the backside of this; I made the nose piece 1 inch in diameter so it can be held in my 1 inch collet. If I ding up the black anodized piece with the threads, I can just make a new piece and bolt it on. For careful work, one would clamp the thing into a collet, then take a light cut to make sure everything was perfectly aligned.

    Oops, the forum doesn't show the filenames. The first picture on the left is lathe2, then lathe3 up to lathe5. lathe1 is at the far right.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  11. jackorocko

    jackorocko

    1,284
    1
    Apr 4, 2010
    So there is an insert that goes inside your spindle that is tapered and this is where the collets get pulled into the wedge to be held?

    I really like the idea of the collets, but from what I can see I need two pieces. The taper that holds the collets and the piece that runs through the spindle that screws onto the end of the collets to pull on them and wedge them into place.

    They probably make a kit for the lathe I own, I will have to start looking around and see what I can come up with.

    I like your faceplate idea too, You can hold any irregular shape and still bore a hole straight through, create a recessed dimple or a few other things. Now I might just have to make me one of these.
     
  12. daddles

    daddles

    443
    3
    Jun 10, 2011
    Those little South Bend/Atlas type lathes you mentioned you have aren't able to take 5C collets -- they take a smaller size.

    A couple of years ago my daughter had a fun experience -- well, she thought it was cool. My collet closer tube broke just behind the threads after about 30 years of use. I bought a chunk of tube steel about 4" long and machined a replacement part, as the threads for closing the collets had gotten messed up. I decided to assemble the long tube and replacement part together by brazing rather than welding -- and I wanted to do it in the final configuration. I machined the two parts to slip fit together closely, then held them together in the lathe, clamped by the tailstock's force. I used my acetylene torch to heat up the rotating parts (at dead slow in back gear), then applied the flux and brazing rod. My daughter's role was to stand their with a fire extinguisher (I was worried that something oily might catch on fire) and if anything went wrong, she knew to hose things down and how to turn off the lathe. It was a bit noisy and smoky, but things of course got red hot and my daughter was just jazzed up about the whole thing and thought it was quite cool.

    When everything cooled down, I took a quick finishing cut to remove any excess spelter and the thing's been working just fine. It was something I've not done in a lathe before, but I won't hesitate to use it again if necessary, even for welding. One of these days I'll experiment to see if it can help you make a nice weld at higher rpms.
     
  13. pcbdesignandfab

    pcbdesignandfab

    3
    0
    Sep 19, 2011
    Jack, You just have to roll your sleeves up and jump right in. Read as much as possible, but the most important thing is getting a hands on knowledge.

    Good luck
     
  14. poor mystic

    poor mystic

    1,074
    33
    Apr 8, 2011
    Wonderful stuff.
    I have noticed that when trades/crafts/professional people get cagy and start hiding information it is often an indicator that they will never rise to the top of their trade/craft/profession. However the very best practitioners are always ready to help others learn... they are not only the best in their fields but also the most willing teachers.
     
  15. pcbdesignandfab

    pcbdesignandfab

    3
    0
    Sep 19, 2011
    Very true. I've always been one to help others out whenever needed. I always feel that help is often reciprocated when i need it. :)
     
  16. poor mystic

    poor mystic

    1,074
    33
    Apr 8, 2011
    yes, pcbdesignandfab ... all may now self-administer many reassuring backpats.




    Snicker, snicker
    (I know I do!)
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
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