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Hybrid Electric Engine

Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by quantumtangles, Feb 21, 2014.

  1. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    Just had a patent for a hybrid electric engine and alternator motor published here:

    http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...40219&DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&locale=en_EP

    Would much appreciate feedback from the serious minds here as it is decision time at this end. WIPO (PCT) fees fall due soon, as do EPO fees and yet more fees for the US application.

    The UK publication is easier to read here:

    http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-ipsum/Docum...7/GB2505082-20140219-Publication document.pdf

    Amended claims published by the UK Patent Office are here:

    http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-ipsum/Docum...131213-Claims Amended before publication.pdf

    Need to make a decision about whether to go ahead or drop it. The UK IPO search held it was novel but the risk is that one gets besotted with an idea to no avail. The vast majority of patents are worthless and so, feeling somewhat fed up of the patent fees, would much appreciate observations from the best electronic engineering experts I know. You.

    Sincere thanks in advance for feedback, good or bad.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  2. duke37

    duke37

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    The magnetic force is very low if the distance between the magnets is large so I think the electric output power would be low. It may be possible to use it as a replacement for an alternator for cheapness. Some small engines use magnets on the flywheel to produce electricity.

    The sliding friction will be much higher than an electrcal rotary machine with roller bearings. The rotary machine will also be be more efficient since the magnetic gap is very small.

    Hybrid cars as far as I know can run on electric motor only when low power is required.

    Is there any way you can simulate this?
     
  3. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    Thanks Duke. Magnetic force is low unless the permanent magnet cylinders are very close to the switching electromagnets when pulsed power is delivered. In other words, the magnetic gap must indeed be small and that is the basis of the idea. Fractions of a millimeter are well within current engineering capability. As for friction, stators create a lot of friction. The invention reduces it. The idea is low angular velocity but high torque.

    The idea here is I = dv/dt. More rapid and more violent changes of voltage per unit time mean that greater current may be generated in alternator motor mode.

    Edit:
    You say "The magnetic force is very low if the distance between the magnets is large so I think the electric output power would be low"

    Electrical power is generated by surrounding permanent magnet cylinders with a copper solenoid. Motive force is provided by the internal combustion engine allowing rapid recharging of a vehicle battery. Accordingly, electric power output has nothing to do with the distance between permanent magnets and the upper and lower static electromagnets. They are only used when the device is not in alternator mode, when the electromagnets consume electrical energy to provide motive force to the crankshaft.

    Did you mean to say "mechanical power output" instead of electrical power output?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  4. mursal

    mursal

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    Dec 13, 2013
    But is there not a fundamental problem with the linear/reciprocating action of the piston in an internal combustion engine? I think that's why NSU invented the rotary (Wankel), so I'm guessing mechanical losses will be high and efficiency low, but I could be wrong.

    Thank you for sharing the information, very interesting
     
  5. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    You are most welcome Mursal.

    When you move a cylindrical magnet up and down inside a solenoid, alternating current is generated. If you attach such a cylindrical permanent magnet to the crankshaft of an internal combustion engine, turn on the internal combustion engine and allow the cylindrical magnet to move up and down inside the same solenoid, much more electrical power is generated. The change in voltage per unit time is the key and that is the idea in alternator motor mode.

    In electric engine mode (when it consumes electrical energy for the purpose of providing motive force to a crankshaft), the forces at work when a high voltage electromagnet is fed with a momentary pulse of high voltage, thereby repulsing an oppositely poled neodymium cylindrical magnet, can be truly collossal.

    These larger neodymium magnets can break your arm if you get between them. However, if you make them angry (by sending high voltage through an oppositely polarised electromagnet 0.1mm away from them), hold on to your hat :D
     
  6. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt

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    Nov 12, 2013
    How is your invention different than a simple motor-generator set? Show us the data on efficiency. Why not just put magnets on the blades of a turbine and have a coil around it?

    Your invention lacks any commercial value. You have no data to show any gain in efficiency. But, I don't think you want to hear that.

    John
     
  7. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    Engineering is not about what people want to hear. It is about reality. I warmly welcome your observations, outwith the fact I do not agree.

    It is different from a simple motor generator set because when connected to an internal combustion engine or impulse turbine, a permanent magnet is caused to move up and down inside a copper solenoid at considerable speed. In light of the fact that I = dv/dt (current = rate of change of voltage per unit time), the device causes more rapid changes of voltage per unit time than a rotary alternator motor. This means, in terms, that car batteries can be charged more rapidly by using a linear or cylindrical permanent magnet inside a solenoid than by rotary alternator motor means.

    Turning now to your idea of putting magnets on the blades of a turbine inside a copper solenoid, no doubt you would generate significant electrical power (leaving aside the issue of novelty). It is not, as you seem to imply, a bad idea.

    But nor is it the same idea. To begin with, it is notoriously tricky to fit a (jet?) turbine under the bonnet of a car. It would also be expensive and, to a fairly alarming extent, dangerous.

    A jet turbine would not lend itself so readily to adoption by the auto industry.

    You are right to speculate I have no data proving gains in efficiency. A prototype is required.

    It is a matter of regret I cannot provide data at this time and I sincerely and contritely apologise if the absence of data has irritated you. Thank you for reminding me that I may be wrong.
     
  8. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt

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    Nov 12, 2013
    My main point is, where are your data? Did you just patent an idea?

    John
     
  9. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    John, I have no data at the moment. I readily accept that objective peer reviewed data is essential.
     
  10. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Even if he did, that's not such a bad thing.

    The idea of patents is to get information out and allow others to benefit from it.

    If (during the life of his patent) someone else does do something based on this idea then QT will be able to gain some benefit. Of course that's making some assumptions about whether his patent is actually valid.

    Having a patent allows him to be much more free and easy in seeking to get some of the efficiency data you mention.

    He's put his money where his mouth is, and that's at least worth recognizing (as is his agreement that efficiency testing is required)
     
  11. KrisBlueNZ

    KrisBlueNZ Sadly passed away in 2015

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    I was going to point out exactly the issues that duke37 pointed out in post #2. I very much doubt that an engine using that scheme would be practical, cost-effective, or reliable.

    It's an interesting idea, but I think that car manufacturers would have considered ideas like this, and many others, and ruled them out for valid reasons. And I don't think there's any point writing a patent application unless you have at least one prototype!

    Sorry to disappoint.

    Your responses to criticisms on this thread seem pretty sensible, but just in case, I want to warn you not to become obsessed with making this idea work. Sometimes people can lose track of reality because of their desire to prove others wrong, to prove that their idea will work, etc. No matter how much you have invested in this idea, you're better to cut your losses if it's just not going to fly. You may not be convinced by other people's opinions that it's not workable, and it's true that "it's never been done" doesn't necessarily mean "it can't be done"; that's where the obsession comes in. Obviously, the decision to give up on the idea is yours alone, but remember that (a) people who criticise the idea are (generally) just trying to help you avoid wasting time, and (b) they may know something that you don't, and you don't know what that thing will be unless you investigate what they say rather than dismissing it for some reason that may not be valid.

    It's an interesting idea though. I never would have thought of it :)
     
  12. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt

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    Nov 12, 2013
    I disagree. The idea of patents is to protect the commercial interests of an inventor from others using his intellectual property. In the US, there is a line between an idea and an invention. If one just wants just to disseminate information for benefit of others, then it should be done in a peer-reviewed journal or by publishing it in some other medium.

    You cannot in theory patent an idea. An invention is an idea reduced to practice, which can be patented.

    Obviously, that distinction is not always observed in the awarding of patents, but it would surely be taken into account should one try to defend his patent.

    In the example presented here, the so-called invention is nothing more than an idea that is supported by neither operational data nor engineering studies.

    John
     
  13. BobK

    BobK

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    If I understand it correctly, when running under electric power, you are pushing the pistons of the ICE as well since they are connected to the same crankshaft. This seems very inefficient to me as all of the friction in the ICE pistons is simply wasting energy. I my Prius, when the electric motor is running the car, the ICE is not spinning.

    Bob
     
  14. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Jan 21, 2010
    In exchange for making the details of the invention public.

    For a counter example see Coca Cola.
     
  15. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    Hi Bob,

    When running on electric power, the ICE pistons are disconnected from the crankshaft.

    Thanks for all the other comments.
     
  16. quantumtangles

    quantumtangles

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    Dec 19, 2012
    Hi All.

    Daimler forwarded the idea to their joint heads of engineering before sending me a polite letter to the effect that they did not intend to buy the patent. Their letter was signed jointly in manuscript by both their heads of engineering..electrical and mechanical). QED.

    Had data been collected, significant mechanical inefficiencies would no doubt have come to light.

    In other words, John was right (drat), although on a brighter note, the process of imagining that you are inventing something can be a catalyst for learning more about a particular field (in my case, it helped me learn more about electricity and magnetism, albeit not nearly enough about mechanical engineering).

    Sincere thanks for all your comments. One thing I was right about is that the members of this forum are well placed to make intelligent observations to debunk wrong thinking. John proved himself entirely correct and I thought I should let you know.

    I noted with great sadness that Kris made helpful observations as well. Even after all this time, his passing remains a terrible loss.
     
  17. Alec_t

    Alec_t

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    Only if the magnet's flux is cutting the conductors of the coil. If the flux lines are predominantly aligned with the solenoid axis then there will be very little current generated.
     
  18. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    It's odd that I missed this topic back in 2012. It's an interesting thread.

    While not mirroring your concept the HSM (Home Shop Machinist) community have been playing with Solenoids mimicking piston engines for quite some time now. You can view a host of these beautiful models in operation on Youtube. Though they're timing designs differ in complexity they all have one thing in common... They're all notoriously inefficient.
    That said they're fun to watch and they aesthetically rise to the realm of an art form.

    Chris
     
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