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how to reduce speed/ amplitude of electronic pendulum??

Discussion in 'Electronic Repair' started by Bill Walston, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. Bill Walston

    Bill Walston Guest

    I recently purchased an electronic pendulum to be used in a clock I
    recently digitized:

    http://www.klockit.com/products/dept-356__sku-20071.html

    The pendulum take a single AA battery. I used a lithium battery which
    didn't last very long. I have several goals I want to try and implement:

    a) I would like the battery to last much longer. What's the best way
    to make this happen? I was thinking that resistance inserted between
    the battery and circuit might do the trick, but unsure.

    b) The pendulum runs too fast and has too much amplitude, with the
    latter so much so that it keeps hitting the insides of the clock. It's
    not a loud sound, but far from your typical "tick-tock" which is
    desired. I'm thinking an added resistance might reduce both battery
    drain as above and reduce the pendulum amplitude, but what about
    frequency?

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    Bill
     
  2. mike

    mike Guest

    First thing to do is state the problem.
    "very long"
    "much longer"
    We talking minutes? years?

    Can't tell from the link.
    You make a pendulum slower by making it longer.
    But google would have told you that in the first hit.
    You make it more efficient by reducing drag.
    You probably don't want to use a vacuum enclosure,
    but you might be able to reduce bearing friction.
    Then you "kick" it in resonance to reduce the battery drain.
    The link doesn't say how the "kicker" works.
    You reduce the energy "kick" to the point that the energy
    in balances the pendulum losses at the amplitude you want.
    Resistor might help the amplitude, but may not help the
    battery drain. Unless the "kicker" is designed for it,
    the amplitude will change with the battery age.
     
  3. Guest

    Frequency is dependent on the length of the pendulum and the strength
    of the gravitational field. To slow the pendulum down either increase
    the length of the pendulum or reduce the strength of the gravitational
    field. Either use a D cell or an external power supply to increase
    the battey life.

    PlainBill
     
  4. Frequency is dependent on the length of the pendulum
    Point... As this pendulum is designed for a clock (I assume), wouldn't it
    have a specified period appropriate for a clock?
     
  5. Bill Walston

    Bill Walston Guest

    Well, the former lithium 1.5V battery powered it for maybe 4-5 months.
    I'd like to stretch this out to a year at least.

    Can't tell from the link.
    The circuit is a 2 transistor design with resistors, capacitors and of
    course the coil. I didn't try to map it out, but it looks similar to
    the 2 transistor pendulum circuits on the web.

    I know we can change the frequency by increasing pendulum length, but
    there's no room in the enclosure. Why wouldn't a simple capacitor
    change in the circuit accomplish the same goal? Isn't the coil just
    part of a resonant LC circuit?

    Bill
     
  6. BeeJ

    BeeJ Guest

    I recently purchased an electronic pendulum to be used in a clock I recently
    Cut out the sides of the clock to allow it full swing.
    If this is a pendulum designed to tick at the correct rate then you
    have to modify the cabinet structure to accomodate it not the other way
    around.
    So when you cut out the sides of the clock cabinet you will have a more
    unique conversation piece. Put up a photo after you get it working.
     
  7. Franc Zabkar

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    Would there be any way to utilise a solar panel and a NiCad or NiMH
    battery, or maybe a super capacitor? For example, you could
    cannibalise a cheap solar garden light.

    Excuse my ignorance, but how does your circuit know when to apply a
    kick? If the kick were to come when the pendulum is on the rise, then
    that would work against it. Therefore the circuit would need to know
    when the pendulum has begun its descent and apply the kick at that
    time.

    Furthermore, if the pendulum's amplitude is growing too large, then
    the circuit would need to refrain from kicking it until the amplitude
    subsides, if only to conserve the battery.

    Therefore ISTM that the circuit must be sensing the pendulum's
    position, in which case you would need to adjust the sensor in order
    to set your desired amplitude. Or am I way off?

    - Franc Zabkar
     
  8. Excuse my ignorance, but how does your circuit
    It doesn't.

    Assume the pendulum is supposed to have a period of one second. You design
    it to be a little bit longer, then make the driver circuit operate at
    exactly one second. The pendulum will eventually sync with the driver.

    Remember when TVs had hold controls? The principle is the same. The
    most-stable operation is obtained when the oscillator runs a tiny bit slower
    than it should, with the sync signals "kicking" it at the right frequency.
     
  9. Guest

    The specific product he identifies is designed as an add-on for a
    quartz movement and comes with a pendulum with an adjustable length
    arm. I'm unsure of the correlation between pendulum length and
    amplitude of the swing, but I would expect a shorter pendulum to swing
    through a wider angle.

    PlainBill
     
  10. hr(bob)

    hr(bob) Guest

    If I remember correctly, a larger weight on the pendulum will also
    slow it down.
     
  11. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Human clocks are the same. Put a human in a cave, out of touch with the
    outside world, and his natural day-length reverts to about 24.5 to 25 hour
    days, requires the sun etc to sync him to 24 hour days
     
  12. Guest

    You don't. The effective length of the pendulum (distance between the
    pivot and the center of the mass) and the gravitational force are the
    only things that affect the speed. Remember the experiment Galileo
    did a few years before he turned his eye to the heavens.

    PlainBill
     
  13. Franc Zabkar

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    Thanks. I'm still trying to understand how it syncs, though.

    I'm trying to envision an equilibrium where the kick comes at a
    regular point in the swing. Does the pendulum sync so that it gets a
    kick at the beginning of the downswing, or does it come at the end of
    the upswing, or can it come at any point in the arc?

    - Franc Zabkar
     
  14. Assume the pendulum is supposed to have a period of one second.
    There is no "intelligence" to the synchronization process. Because the
    pendulum swings at a different frequency with respect to the drive circuit,
    it has a continually varying phase relationship with it. So, at some point
    the kick will occur when the pendulum is near the energized drive
    electromagnet. The cycle starts at this point.

    On the next swing, the pendulum will be slightly "late". But if it's "close
    enough" to the energized electromagnet, it will receive another kick. And so
    on, and so on...
    I assume at the end of the upswing.
     
  15. I've only seen one electronic pendulum. it used a sensing coil
    I'm not sure that would work correctly. You want the drive coil to fire at a
    fixed frequency. Otherwise, the pendulum would be synched at its lower
    native frequency.
     
  16. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    If I remember correctly, a larger weight on the pendulum will also
    slow it down.


    from http://www.adam-hart-davis.org/odd_but_interesting.htm

    Q. Why do the people who regulate "Big Ben's clock use adding or
    subtracting old pennies to the weight on the bottom?
    - John Gifford, London

    A. Yes the period of pendulum is governed by its length and is independent
    of the mass at the end. But if you add an old penny to the bob of the
    pendulum of Big Ben, then you slightly alter its length; in fact you make it
    a bit shorter, because the centre of mass of the bob is slightly raised.
    Similarly if you take pennies off, you will in effect slightly lengthen the
    pendulum. This seems an odd way to do it, but it is obviously very
    convenient, and simpler than winding the bob up and down by a minute amount.
     
  17. If I remember correctly, a larger weight on the pendulum will also
    Nope. The period depends on the length of the pendulum and the acceleration
    of gravity.

    Physics courses often include units analysis. * Such an analysis shows --
    without even performing an experiment -- that length and the strength of the
    gravitational field are the factors that matter.

    * That probably isn't the right term, but I can't think of what it is.
     
  18. Franc Zabkar

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    Perhaps there are two different design philosophies.

    In one case the pendulum is tuned to a frequency of 1Hz and the
    electronic circuit functions to compensate for losses due to friction
    and drag.

    In the second case the electronic circuit provides an accurate crystal
    controlled time base and it keeps the pendulum synced to this time
    base.

    In other words, perhaps in the first instance the pendulum is driving
    the clock movement, while in the second case the clock movement is
    driving the pendulum.

    - Franc Zabkar
     
  19. What you say makes sense -- but the drive circuit will always compensate for
    losses, regardless of design philosophy.

    Therefore, it makes sense to have the pendulum swing a tiny bit slow, and
    have the drive circuit force it to the correct frequency. This would also
    make trimming the frequency a simple matter.
     
  20. Guest

    To me the way that makes the most sense is to completely uncouple the
    two functions. The accuracy of the cheapest quartz movement is far
    better than you can get with the most precise pendulum. The most
    efficient pendulum is one that oscillates at it's native frequency.
    Googeling electronic pendulum drive circuit yields a great deal of
    information, including some designs that simply provide a boost to a
    pendulum at it's native frequency. Most of the designs did nothing to
    optimize drive current.

    PlainBill
     
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