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How to calculate power ripple, and then to add the sutable Capacitor?

J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Pooh Bear
I just did a quick simulation using EWB. I'm blowed if I can tweak
anything much away from a 2.5ms conduction period.

I had a small resistance in series with the supply that I varied from
0R1 to 5R. Still didn't change much though.

Do you recall any more details ?

I'm not sure what you want in the way of more details. Bridge rectifier
directly on-line with about 0.5 ohm series to represent the supply
impedance (otherwise you get infinite inrush current). Reservoir
capacitor say 470 uF and a resistive load that takes 30 W or so. Of
course, the SMPS switch doesn't look like a resistor, but at a fixed
input voltage it doesn't matter.

I don't know how good EWB is at this game; many people don't like it. I
use LTSpice, which was designed for the job, when Kevin isn't
looking.(;-)
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Boki said:
Hi All,
My audio amplifier has a lot of noise, after I connect a VCC to
GND capacitor, the noise is gone.

But, I did a boring thing, ==> try and error to find the value.

How can I calculate the value directly?

Do I have to use scope to see the ripple first? and then calculate the
RC time?

When you say 'my amplifier', is this a new design of yours or an
existing unit that you are repairing?
Calculating the ripple is OK for an initial design, taking regulator and
amplifier app notes into account.

The scope would be the best approach for a repair. The design may have
been OK, but components may have drifted over time.
 
B

Boki

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am trying to know why the extra capacitor between VDD and GND of
LM386 can solve this problem...

Boki.
 
B

Boki

Jan 1, 1970
0
What a professional comments!

It seems that my noise is tick-tick-tick at 5 to 50 ticks/second, when
I play sound, the noise become louder, when I stop sound, the noise
become smaller gradually.

If this is not the ripple problem ( I can't sure yet ), I don't know
why capacitor solves this problem.

I have measured my DC power supply ripple, it is about 40~80mv(pp), how
is this value? safe or not? or, what is the safe value for audio
amplifier ? ( not Hi-Fi quality, MP3 AV output is enough )


Best regards,
Boki.
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
Boki said:
What a professional comments!

It seems that my noise is tick-tick-tick at 5 to 50 ticks/second, when
I play sound, the noise become louder, when I stop sound, the noise
become smaller gradually.

If this is not the ripple problem ( I can't sure yet ), I don't know
why capacitor solves this problem.

I have measured my DC power supply ripple, it is about 40~80mv(pp), how
is this value? safe or not? or, what is the safe value for audio
amplifier ? ( not Hi-Fi quality, MP3 AV output is enough )

The ripple is fairly unimportant.

The *psu* deals with ripple current issues.

You have a supply decoupling problem. The LM386 is *notorious* for being a
problem in this regard.

Use something more modern. I've said this from the moment you mentioned the
LM386 btw.


Graham
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Boki said:
What a professional comments!

It seems that my noise is tick-tick-tick at 5 to 50 ticks/second, when
I play sound, the noise become louder, when I stop sound, the noise
become smaller gradually.

If this is not the ripple problem ( I can't sure yet ), I don't know
why capacitor solves this problem.

Like Graham said: this is NOT ripple, it is a supply decoupling problem.

If it were ripple, the noise would be at exactly the same frequency as the
AC supply line, e.g., 60Hz or 50Hz depending on where you live, or else at
the switching frequency of your power supply if you are using a switching
regulator or converter (which would probably be supersonic).

You're familiar with putting a 0.1uF capacitor across the power supply pins
for your digital ICs, right? This is the same idea. The issue is that
power supply lines have nonzero resistance and inductance, and that
interacts with the amplifier to form an oscillator. The details vary
depending on the circuit. The LM386 is, as Graham says, notorious for
low-frequency oscillation, also known as "motorboating".

Want a more modern amplifier chip? Go to National Semiconductor's web site,
and search for "audio power amplifier". Take a look at their "Boomer"
series of chips. (Or, you could go to TI, or Zetex, etc. I just happen to
be a little more familiar with National.) There are dozens of them, many
aimed at exactly your requirements. You have your choice of linear or
switching ("class D").

I have measured my DC power supply ripple, it is about 40~80mv(pp), how
is this value? safe or not? or, what is the safe value for audio
amplifier ? ( not Hi-Fi quality, MP3 AV output is enough )

It depends on how much noise you want on the output, and the power supply
rejection ratio (PSRR) of the amplifier. For instance, if you have 60dB
PSRR, and you have 80mV of supply ripple, then you will have 80uV of ripple
on the output. The LM386 is specified at 50dB PSRR. Most modern amps are a
lot better than 60dB, so they can tolerate quite a lot of ripple. But you
have to decide for yourself how much you can accept.

If you were driving headphones, with typical 95dB SPL/mW efficiency and 64
ohm impedance, then 80uV of ripple would be 25dB of sound pressure level,
which is just barely audible in a quiet room. The noise output of the
amplifier would probably dominate, especially since ripple is usually at low
frequencies where our ears are less sensitive anyway.
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Boki said:
I am trying to know why the extra capacitor between VDD and GND of
LM386 can solve this problem...

I think it is because when there is resistance in the power supply line, and
a big capacitor in series with the output, the LM386 is not stable at low
frequencies.

Have you looked at the output of the amp with a scope, to see what the
waveform looks like?
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Boki said:
What a professional comments!

It seems that my noise is tick-tick-tick at 5 to 50 ticks/second, when
I play sound, the noise become louder, when I stop sound, the noise
become smaller gradually.

If this is not the ripple problem ( I can't sure yet ), I don't know
why capacitor solves this problem.

I have measured my DC power supply ripple, it is about 40~80mv(pp), how
is this value? safe or not? or, what is the safe value for audio
amplifier ? ( not Hi-Fi quality, MP3 AV output is enough )

Please describe all the components you have connected to the LM386 and
how they are connected, including the kind of power supply you are
using. We should be able to eliminate the ticking.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Popelish <[email protected]>
wrote (in <[email protected]>) about 'How to calculate
power ripple, and then to add the sutable Capacitor?', on Mon, 3 Oct
2005:
Please describe all the components you have connected to the LM386 and
how they are connected, including the kind of power supply you are
using. We should be able to eliminate the ticking.

When you ask that sort of question, boki changes the subject.
 
B

Boki

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thank you very much for this lesson : ) I will try them.

Best regards,
Boki.
 
B

Boki

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for comment!

existing unit that I am repairing to a new unit : )

BR/

Boki.
 
B

Boki

Jan 1, 1970
0
Do we really need such a bigger capacitor for ripple problem?

/BR
Boki.
 
M

mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
Boki said:
Hi All,
My audio amplifier has a lot of noise, after I connect a VCC to
GND capacitor, the noise is gone.

But, I did a boring thing, ==> try and error to find the value.

How can I calculate the value directly?

Do I have to use scope to see the ripple first? and then calculate the
RC time?

Best regards,
Boki.

It's a capacitor. I = C x dV/dT
It's an exponential decay, which is pretty much a straight line
for time much less than a time constant.
mike

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K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Do we really need such a bigger capacitor for ripple problem?

No, you can use an inductor or have a large head room on a linear
regulator instead.
 
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