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How to build self-powered perpetual motion heat pump ?

Discussion in 'Photovoltaics' started by Jack, Oct 29, 2003.

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  1. Jack

    Jack Guest

    Hi,

    I would appreciate your help and advise in building a self-powered
    perpetual motion heatpump, to work without outer electric power supply.
    Entirely energy self-dependent.
    Please let me know your ideas.

    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  2. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Uuu...... not ok........?????
    (WARNING! You are entering a non perpetual motion zone! WARNING!)
    Briggs and Stratton engine comes to mind. :)
    Or one of those kool propane fired units.
    There is a few ways you could do it without
    and external gas or electric source and
    perpetual motion doesn't come to mind, but
    I'll keep my ideas to myself.
    Because after I read this tag line....
    I knew that you would try and patent any
    ideas that you got off of other people.
    And I don't plan on being a source for your patent ideas.
     
  3. daestrom

    daestrom Guest

    Perpetual motion machines have never been accomplished. Not likely to be
    accomplished in our lifetime either. It goes against a well established
    body of physics, both theoretical and experimental.

    daestrom
     
  4. Jack

    Jack Guest

    Sorry, but H2 cold fusion is not perpetual.
    I meant exactly and only heatpump to generate enough energy to enable
    self-powering of water pump and heatpump self.


    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  5. Jack

    Jack Guest

    Ok.
    Heatpump is not against the principles of physics.
    All I need to have heatpump to generate enough energy to self-power it.
    Where do you see anything against the physics ?

    If efficiency of heatpump is 300% , so I only need to use 200% to power
    the heatpump on itself.

    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  6. Jack

    Jack Guest

    not exactly N9WOS, by public discussion, we make a publication,
    generating prior art, making that stuff non-patentable.

    liar,
    could you kindly name only a one idea I have got off from other people ?

    liar, next time play fair,

    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  7. daestrom

    daestrom Guest

    Right there is your flaw.

    If a heat pump takes 3 kWhr to move 15 kWhr between two temperatures, you
    can *NOT* get 3kWhr from *any* heat engine operating between those same two
    temperatures with just 15kWhr of energy. To get the 3kWhr to run the heat
    pump, you need a heat source/sink that are hotter and/or colder than the
    ones your heat pump can produce.

    *IF* everything could be made perfectly 'reversible' (no friction, and the
    temperature difference from the freon on the heat pump side to the
    heat-engine side is zero), then you can *just* (theoretically) get it to
    work. But you would have no energy left over to put into your house. Made
    anything lately that has zero friction? How do you get heat transfer with
    zero temperature difference?

    You must consider just how much mechanical work you can extract from the
    temperature differences created by the heat pump and the 'heat' that it
    'pumps'. You will always come up short.

    daestrom
     
  8. Jack

    Jack Guest

    why ?
    if efficiency of heatpump is 300% or more it should be still feasible to
    have a heatpump operated by heat energy it self generated
    if electric energy operated water and heatpumps are not feasible in this
    case, so mayby one powered by "heat" , heat-engine ?

    Jack

    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  9. Don Kelly

    Don Kelly Guest

    -----------
    This proposal is not new. However, what also is not new is that it does not
    work.

    A heat pump is a form of heat engine and does not violate the principles of
    thermodynamics or physics (in fact knowledge of these principles led to the
    invention of the heat pump). Unfortunately, the same principles apply to
    conversion of the output heat into the mechanical (or whatever)energy needed
    to drive the heat pump follows exactly the same rules . With
    "perfect"conversion, this process will have an efficiency of 33.33..% . 1/3
    of 3 is 1.
    The result is that a "perfect" heat pump will produce only enough energy to
    run itself- with nothing left over. From an useful output point of view
    it's a complicated and expensive way to do nothing. A "real" heat
    pump/engine won't even do this because of losses- making it an even more
    expensive way to do nothing.
    I suggest that you study the thermodynamics of a heat pump/engine- the
    reason the proposal doesn't work is quite apparent. This has been covered
    before on this newsgroup.

    Conservation of energy still wins -
     
  10. Jack

    Jack Guest

    you are right
    so let's combine Stirling engine and heatpump into one heat energy
    supply device.
    Use Stirling engine to operate heatpump.
    That's all what I need.
    I already know how to operate Stirling engine in the summer( warming by
    sun, cooling by a water)
    but how to operate Stirling engine in the winter or in the night ?

    Jack



    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  11. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

  12. ....
    A heat pump may consume 1KWH, and pump 3 KWH of heat from Tcold to Thot.
    Usually this means that the hot side gets 4KWH since the energy that was put
    into the pump (ignoring losses) will show up in the hot side. The thing is,
    the heat pump can be a perfectly reversible system, and as a heat engine it
    consumes 4KWH from the hot side, Dumps 3 KWH into the cold side, and gives
    you back your 1KWH in useful work energy (again, ignoring losses). If you
    found a heat pump, or a heat engine, that would do better, then conservation
    of energy would be violated, and in this universe, that just doesn't seem to
    happen, ever, quantum mechanics excepted, sort of.
     
  13. You need to have a storage media for the heat (rock, water, some phase
    change material, even sand or dry dirt). You then use this to run the
    stirling. If you were willing to build a room sized unit to get a few KW,
    you could use a swimming pool to store the mean summer temperature and run
    your heat engine between the warm pool and the icy outside temp. No
    collector needed, but you would have to circulate the air for the ambient
    side heat exchanger, and it would take a really large stirling because of
    the low temperature difference. That's about as close to perpetual motion as
    it gets, I think.
     
  14. Jack

    Jack Guest

    i can't agree with you
    There is nothing against the science to have a heatpump to work as a
    device powered by self.

    Having two sources of heat, one at lower temperature and one at higher
    temperature, you can still build Stirling engine to generate some power.
    I didn't mean perpetual motion device.
    I meant heatpump powered by self, Stirling engine is only an example.
    The idea was to build off-the-grid heatpump.

    There is nothing against the science.
    Just replace the term "self-powered perpetual heatpump" with the term
    "off-the-grid heatpump".

    Jack
     
  15. Danno

    Danno Guest

    My nephews are in perpetual motion. You could harness their energy (if
    you could actually catch one).
     
  16. daestrom

    daestrom Guest

    If you have a source of heat to run your Stirling engine (to drive a heat
    pump), why not just use the source of heat directly?? Much simpler, and
    fool proof.

    Mind you, if your heat source is a much higher temperature than you need for
    heating, I suppose you *could* get enough work out of it to run a heat pump
    that delivers more energy at a temperature closer to your heating needs.
    But with losses, it would be rather 'iffy'.

    daestrom
     
  17. ....
    There really is nothing to agree to. That's just the way things work. They
    work that way so predictably that we don't call conservation a rule of thumb
    but a law. It got this exalted status by being simply always right. If you
    think you have found a way around it, something prevents it from working.
    This one is simple. Try to figure out why you can't make a Maxwell's demon
    some time.

    BTB, you can make a heat engine, and use it to run a heat pump, and
    construct a very nice thermal battery. The killer is making a really
    efficient heat engine/pump without spending the GNP.
     
  18. Jack

    Jack Guest

    thanks, you have got my point
    make my heatpump heat engine and heat pump both

    I would prefer cold fusion type membrane to work as Stirling heat engine
    and electrical energy generator both
    just one used in reverse osmosis to make forced flow of warmer water
    into tank with colder water
    forcing water flow and incorporating the latest water fuel cell
    invention, i get what I wanted,
    free energy generated from a water, forced to flow from a tank with
    higher temperature to a tank with lower temperature water.

    Analogy to reverse osmosis and RO membrane is excellent .

    With a special soluable supplement to water, I mean CO2 gas and special
    RO designed membrane one could expect to originate reverse osmosis
    inducted water flow, generating electric current.

    I am really impressed by the last show of H2 fuel cells I attended.
    I does really makes sense to work on cost efficient thanol/methanol fuel
    cell membranes.

    How to make a special RO membrane for a solution of CO2 in H2O
    and to combine it with cold fusion , i.e. fuel cell membrane ?
    --
    Jack
    Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
    ______________________________
    Global Inventors Organization
    20 inventions for auction sale
    starting bid $ 100 a piece
     
  19. sno

    sno Guest

    It would work in theory....but is not practical...

    If you have a big enough difference in temperature you
    could have a device that would be practical....but
    since we are talking heat engines the carnot cycle
    applies (efficiency goes up with higher difference,
    do search on google)....if you have a high enough
    difference you would do better using the heat
    directly (ie: steam engine)

    --
    I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left

    This tag line is generated by:

    SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)
     
  20. Don Kelly

    Don Kelly Guest

    ---------
    Your point does violate the known laws of thermodynamics and conservation of
    energy. If you had a heat engine and pump without any losses at all- the
    best you could do is to have it run itself with nothing left over to do
    anything else. That is- you could spend a lot of money to have something
    that does nothing worth while. If you have losses as all real devices will
    have, all that will happen is that the device will need a net input of
    energy from some other source in order to do nothing worth while. Look at
    the thermodynamics of heat pumps/engines.
    This approach to "perpetual motion " is not new- nor is it's failure to
    perform.
     
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