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How to build self-powered perpetual motion heat pump ?

J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I would appreciate your help and advise in building a self-powered
perpetual motion heatpump, to work without outer electric power supply.
Entirely energy self-dependent.
Please let me know your ideas.

--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
N

N9WOS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
Hi,

I would appreciate your help and advise in building a self-powered
ok....

perpetual motion heatpump,

Uuu...... not ok........?????
(WARNING! You are entering a non perpetual motion zone! WARNING!)
to work without outer electric power supply.

Briggs and Stratton engine comes to mind. :)
Or one of those kool propane fired units.
Entirely energy self-dependent.
Please let me know your ideas.

There is a few ways you could do it without
and external gas or electric source and
perpetual motion doesn't come to mind, but
I'll keep my ideas to myself.
Because after I read this tag line....
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece

I knew that you would try and patent any
ideas that you got off of other people.
And I don't plan on being a source for your patent ideas.
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
Hi,

I would appreciate your help and advise in building a self-powered
perpetual motion heatpump, to work without outer electric power supply.
Entirely energy self-dependent.
Please let me know your ideas.

Perpetual motion machines have never been accomplished. Not likely to be
accomplished in our lifetime either. It goes against a well established
body of physics, both theoretical and experimental.

daestrom
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry, but H2 cold fusion is not perpetual.
I meant exactly and only heatpump to generate enough energy to enable
self-powering of water pump and heatpump self.


Eric said:
Connect solar panels to a cold fusion device. Use the excess energy to run
the wind turbine.

--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Perpetual motion machines have never been accomplished. Not likely to be
accomplished in our lifetime either. It goes against a well established
body of physics, both theoretical and experimental.

daestrom

Ok.
Heatpump is not against the principles of physics.
All I need to have heatpump to generate enough energy to self-power it.
Where do you see anything against the physics ?

If efficiency of heatpump is 300% , so I only need to use 200% to power
the heatpump on itself.

--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
N9WOS said:
Uuu...... not ok........?????
(WARNING! You are entering a non perpetual motion zone! WARNING!)


Briggs and Stratton engine comes to mind. :)
Or one of those kool propane fired units.


There is a few ways you could do it without
and external gas or electric source and
perpetual motion doesn't come to mind, but
I'll keep my ideas to myself.
Because after I read this tag line....
I knew that you would try and patent any
ideas that you got off of other people.
And I don't plan on being a source for your patent ideas.

not exactly N9WOS, by public discussion, we make a publication,
generating prior art, making that stuff non-patentable.

liar,
could you kindly name only a one idea I have got off from other people ?

liar, next time play fair,

--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
daestrom wrote:

Ok.
Heatpump is not against the principles of physics.
True.

All I need to have heatpump to generate enough energy to self-power it.
Where do you see anything against the physics ?

Right there is your flaw.

If a heat pump takes 3 kWhr to move 15 kWhr between two temperatures, you
can *NOT* get 3kWhr from *any* heat engine operating between those same two
temperatures with just 15kWhr of energy. To get the 3kWhr to run the heat
pump, you need a heat source/sink that are hotter and/or colder than the
ones your heat pump can produce.

*IF* everything could be made perfectly 'reversible' (no friction, and the
temperature difference from the freon on the heat pump side to the
heat-engine side is zero), then you can *just* (theoretically) get it to
work. But you would have no energy left over to put into your house. Made
anything lately that has zero friction? How do you get heat transfer with
zero temperature difference?

You must consider just how much mechanical work you can extract from the
temperature differences created by the heat pump and the 'heat' that it
'pumps'. You will always come up short.

daestrom
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
daestrom said:
Right there is your flaw.

If a heat pump takes 3 kWhr to move 15 kWhr between two temperatures, you
can *NOT* get 3kWhr from *any* heat engine operating between those same two
temperatures with just 15kWhr of energy. To get the 3kWhr to run the heat
pump, you need a heat source/sink that are hotter and/or colder than the
ones your heat pump can produce.

*IF* everything could be made perfectly 'reversible' (no friction, and the
temperature difference from the freon on the heat pump side to the
heat-engine side is zero), then you can *just* (theoretically) get it to
work. But you would have no energy left over to put into your house. Made
anything lately that has zero friction? How do you get heat transfer with
zero temperature difference?

You must consider just how much mechanical work you can extract from the
temperature differences created by the heat pump and the 'heat' that it
'pumps'. You will always come up short.

why ?
if efficiency of heatpump is 300% or more it should be still feasible to
have a heatpump operated by heat energy it self generated
if electric energy operated water and heatpumps are not feasible in this
case, so mayby one powered by "heat" , heat-engine ?

Jack

--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
D

Don Kelly

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
Ok.
Heatpump is not against the principles of physics.
All I need to have heatpump to generate enough energy to self-power it.
Where do you see anything against the physics ?

If efficiency of heatpump is 300% , so I only need to use 200% to power
the heatpump on itself.
-----------
This proposal is not new. However, what also is not new is that it does not
work.

A heat pump is a form of heat engine and does not violate the principles of
thermodynamics or physics (in fact knowledge of these principles led to the
invention of the heat pump). Unfortunately, the same principles apply to
conversion of the output heat into the mechanical (or whatever)energy needed
to drive the heat pump follows exactly the same rules . With
"perfect"conversion, this process will have an efficiency of 33.33..% . 1/3
of 3 is 1.
The result is that a "perfect" heat pump will produce only enough energy to
run itself- with nothing left over. From an useful output point of view
it's a complicated and expensive way to do nothing. A "real" heat
pump/engine won't even do this because of losses- making it an even more
expensive way to do nothing.
I suggest that you study the thermodynamics of a heat pump/engine- the
reason the proposal doesn't work is quite apparent. This has been covered
before on this newsgroup.

Conservation of energy still wins -
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
you are right
so let's combine Stirling engine and heatpump into one heat energy
supply device.
Use Stirling engine to operate heatpump.
That's all what I need.
I already know how to operate Stirling engine in the summer( warming by
sun, cooling by a water)
but how to operate Stirling engine in the winter or in the night ?

Jack


Mitch said:
Jack, your question is too wierd to answer :) You can build a heat pump
that will work off solar, propane, coal or wood instead of electricity
utilizing a stirling engine but a perpetual motion self contained version
does not yet exist or we all would have them!

Mitch


--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
F

Fred B. McGalliard

Jan 1, 1970
0
....
why ?
if efficiency of heatpump is 300% or more it should be still feasible to
have a heatpump operated by heat energy it self generated
if electric energy operated water and heatpumps are not feasible in this
case, so mayby one powered by "heat" , heat-engine ?

A heat pump may consume 1KWH, and pump 3 KWH of heat from Tcold to Thot.
Usually this means that the hot side gets 4KWH since the energy that was put
into the pump (ignoring losses) will show up in the hot side. The thing is,
the heat pump can be a perfectly reversible system, and as a heat engine it
consumes 4KWH from the hot side, Dumps 3 KWH into the cold side, and gives
you back your 1KWH in useful work energy (again, ignoring losses). If you
found a heat pump, or a heat engine, that would do better, then conservation
of energy would be violated, and in this universe, that just doesn't seem to
happen, ever, quantum mechanics excepted, sort of.
 
F

Fred B. McGalliard

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
you are right
so let's combine Stirling engine and heatpump into one heat energy
supply device.
Use Stirling engine to operate heatpump.
That's all what I need.
I already know how to operate Stirling engine in the summer( warming by
sun, cooling by a water)
but how to operate Stirling engine in the winter or in the night ?

You need to have a storage media for the heat (rock, water, some phase
change material, even sand or dry dirt). You then use this to run the
stirling. If you were willing to build a room sized unit to get a few KW,
you could use a swimming pool to store the mean summer temperature and run
your heat engine between the warm pool and the icy outside temp. No
collector needed, but you would have to circulate the air for the ambient
side heat exchanger, and it would take a really large stirling because of
the low temperature difference. That's about as close to perpetual motion as
it gets, I think.
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred B. McGalliard said:
...

A heat pump may consume 1KWH, and pump 3 KWH of heat from Tcold to Thot.
Usually this means that the hot side gets 4KWH since the energy that was put
into the pump (ignoring losses) will show up in the hot side. The thing is,
the heat pump can be a perfectly reversible system, and as a heat engine it
consumes 4KWH from the hot side, Dumps 3 KWH into the cold side, and gives
you back your 1KWH in useful work energy (again, ignoring losses). If you
found a heat pump, or a heat engine, that would do better, then conservation
of energy would be violated, and in this universe, that just doesn't seem to
happen, ever, quantum mechanics excepted, sort of.

i can't agree with you
There is nothing against the science to have a heatpump to work as a
device powered by self.

Having two sources of heat, one at lower temperature and one at higher
temperature, you can still build Stirling engine to generate some power.
I didn't mean perpetual motion device.
I meant heatpump powered by self, Stirling engine is only an example.
The idea was to build off-the-grid heatpump.

There is nothing against the science.
Just replace the term "self-powered perpetual heatpump" with the term
"off-the-grid heatpump".

Jack
 
D

Danno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
Hi,

I would appreciate your help and advise in building a self-powered
perpetual motion heatpump, to work without outer electric power supply.
Entirely energy self-dependent.
Please let me know your ideas.

My nephews are in perpetual motion. You could harness their energy (if
you could actually catch one).
 
D

daestrom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
you are right
so let's combine Stirling engine and heatpump into one heat energy
supply device.
Use Stirling engine to operate heatpump.
That's all what I need.
I already know how to operate Stirling engine in the summer( warming by
sun, cooling by a water)
but how to operate Stirling engine in the winter or in the night ?

Jack

If you have a source of heat to run your Stirling engine (to drive a heat
pump), why not just use the source of heat directly?? Much simpler, and
fool proof.

Mind you, if your heat source is a much higher temperature than you need for
heating, I suppose you *could* get enough work out of it to run a heat pump
that delivers more energy at a temperature closer to your heating needs.
But with losses, it would be rather 'iffy'.

daestrom
 
F

Fred B. McGalliard

Jan 1, 1970
0
....
i can't agree with you
There is nothing against the science to have a heatpump to work as a
device powered by self.

There really is nothing to agree to. That's just the way things work. They
work that way so predictably that we don't call conservation a rule of thumb
but a law. It got this exalted status by being simply always right. If you
think you have found a way around it, something prevents it from working.
This one is simple. Try to figure out why you can't make a Maxwell's demon
some time.

BTB, you can make a heat engine, and use it to run a heat pump, and
construct a very nice thermal battery. The killer is making a really
efficient heat engine/pump without spending the GNP.
 
J

Jack

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred B. McGalliard said:
...

There really is nothing to agree to. That's just the way things work. They
work that way so predictably that we don't call conservation a rule of thumb
but a law. It got this exalted status by being simply always right. If you
think you have found a way around it, something prevents it from working.
This one is simple. Try to figure out why you can't make a Maxwell's demon
some time.

BTB, you can make a heat engine, and use it to run a heat pump, and
construct a very nice thermal battery. The killer is making a really
efficient heat engine/pump without spending the GNP.

thanks, you have got my point
make my heatpump heat engine and heat pump both

I would prefer cold fusion type membrane to work as Stirling heat engine
and electrical energy generator both
just one used in reverse osmosis to make forced flow of warmer water
into tank with colder water
forcing water flow and incorporating the latest water fuel cell
invention, i get what I wanted,
free energy generated from a water, forced to flow from a tank with
higher temperature to a tank with lower temperature water.

Analogy to reverse osmosis and RO membrane is excellent .

With a special soluable supplement to water, I mean CO2 gas and special
RO designed membrane one could expect to originate reverse osmosis
inducted water flow, generating electric current.

I am really impressed by the last show of H2 fuel cells I attended.
I does really makes sense to work on cost efficient thanol/methanol fuel
cell membranes.

How to make a special RO membrane for a solution of CO2 in H2O
and to combine it with cold fusion , i.e. fuel cell membrane ?
--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece
 
S

sno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
thanks, you have got my point
make my heatpump heat engine and heat pump both

I would prefer cold fusion type membrane to work as Stirling heat engine
and electrical energy generator both
just one used in reverse osmosis to make forced flow of warmer water
into tank with colder water
forcing water flow and incorporating the latest water fuel cell
invention, i get what I wanted,
free energy generated from a water, forced to flow from a tank with
higher temperature to a tank with lower temperature water.

Analogy to reverse osmosis and RO membrane is excellent .

With a special soluable supplement to water, I mean CO2 gas and special
RO designed membrane one could expect to originate reverse osmosis
inducted water flow, generating electric current.

I am really impressed by the last show of H2 fuel cells I attended.
I does really makes sense to work on cost efficient thanol/methanol fuel
cell membranes.

How to make a special RO membrane for a solution of CO2 in H2O
and to combine it with cold fusion , i.e. fuel cell membrane ?
--
Jack
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography
______________________________
Global Inventors Organization
20 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $ 100 a piece

It would work in theory....but is not practical...

If you have a big enough difference in temperature you
could have a device that would be practical....but
since we are talking heat engines the carnot cycle
applies (efficiency goes up with higher difference,
do search on google)....if you have a high enough
difference you would do better using the heat
directly (ie: steam engine)

--
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left

This tag line is generated by:

SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)
 
D

Don Kelly

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jack said:
thanks, you have got my point
make my heatpump heat engine and heat pump both
---------
Your point does violate the known laws of thermodynamics and conservation of
energy. If you had a heat engine and pump without any losses at all- the
best you could do is to have it run itself with nothing left over to do
anything else. That is- you could spend a lot of money to have something
that does nothing worth while. If you have losses as all real devices will
have, all that will happen is that the device will need a net input of
energy from some other source in order to do nothing worth while. Look at
the thermodynamics of heat pumps/engines.
This approach to "perpetual motion " is not new- nor is it's failure to
perform.
 
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