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How much effort should I put to hard-wire?

E

Eric Stauffer

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am in the midst of designing an alarm system for my residence. I have
four exterior entrances (front, back, two sets of french doors) and one
to the garage I would like to alarm. This is an circe 1920 house so
installing the switches may not be a walk in park. How much effort
should I put into hard-wiring the switches before I look to RF? I do
have a basement will (nearly) full access to the areas below the doors.

Thanks,
Eric
 
Eric said:
I am in the midst of designing an alarm system for my residence. I have
four exterior entrances (front, back, two sets of french doors) and one
to the garage I would like to alarm. This is an circe 1920 house so
installing the switches may not be a walk in park. How much effort
should I put into hard-wiring the switches before I look to RF? I do
have a basement will (nearly) full access to the areas below the doors.

You could possibly drill down through the door step into the basement
and put recessed switches in. Be sure to use a sufficient angle inward
to come out the side of the floor joist or beam that will be directly
beneath the door, since the bottoms of the joists will likely be
resting on concrete, and you'll need to be sure to countersink the
sensor a bit so you can seal up the hole with caulking afterward.
Mounting the magnet will probably require taking the doors off to drill
into their bottoms.

If you go this way, you'll probably want to use wide-gap switches as
well, as you'll have to put them in the step fairly deep to get the
angle you need and leave room for a solid dab of caulking.
 
C

Crash Gordon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depends on how much work you want to do. These days RF is so reliable it's
usually a wash equip cost vs time spent. If you don't wanna see the
transmitters on doors/windows you can always cut them in the wall with old
work boxes and blank covers installed at outlet height too.


|I am in the midst of designing an alarm system for my residence. I have
| four exterior entrances (front, back, two sets of french doors) and one
| to the garage I would like to alarm. This is an circe 1920 house so
| installing the switches may not be a walk in park. How much effort
| should I put into hard-wiring the switches before I look to RF? I do
| have a basement will (nearly) full access to the areas below the doors.
|
| Thanks,
| Eric
|
 
B

Bill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Replacement batteries can be quite expensive. So if you are planning on
living there a long time, hardwire now would save you money in the long run.

So far as doing it yourself, running concealed wires in an already built
home is an art which can take quite a bit of experience to learn. Also
knowing what is inside the walls, not drilling into an electric or gas line,
etc.

If you are not experienced at this, I would suggest having an experienced
alarm installer or electrician do it for you.

But have it done for cash, no contracts, etc. Probably best to find someone
to do it on the side and not deal with an alarm company. Or a small locally
owned alarm company might do this without any contracts which obligate you
to monitoring, etc.

Check this place out for monitoring...
http://www.alarmrelay.com


"Eric Stauffer" wrote in message
 
J

Jim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
Replacement batteries can be quite expensive. So if you are planning on
living there a long time, hardwire now would save you money in the long run.

So far as doing it yourself, running concealed wires in an already built
home is an art which can take quite a bit of experience to learn. Also
knowing what is inside the walls, not drilling into an electric or gas line,
etc.

If you are not experienced at this, I would suggest having an experienced
alarm installer or electrician do it for you.

But have it done for cash, no contracts, etc. Probably best to find someone
to do it on the side and not deal with an alarm company. Or a small locally
owned alarm company might do this without any contracts which obligate you
to monitoring, etc.

Why sure Bill,
That's what we really want to see on a Newsgroup made up of installers.

Someone promoting getting work done by someone who's cheating on their
employer.

Yep,
Ya know ......... you could just tell him to hail down the next car he
sees with a ladder sticking out of it's trunk. He's sure to get a good
job done ......... and real cheap too!
 
B

Bob Worthy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Why sure Bill,
That's what we really want to see on a Newsgroup made up of installers.

Someone promoting getting work done by someone who's cheating on their
employer.

Yep,
Ya know ......... you could just tell him to hail down the next car he
sees with a ladder sticking out of it's trunk. He's sure to get a good
job done ......... and real cheap too!

Until the guy stubs his toe, because he was wearing flip flops and sues the
homeowner on a workers comp claim. Go ahead and pay the guy **cash** and
then file a 1099 on his ass for income tax purposes. Maybe they'll learn not
to be ho's when they have to answer why they forgot to claim that income on
their IRS form. Bill started his post out OK and then went quickly to hell
in a hand basket. Some of the advice that comes out of here is always good
for kick and giggles.
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Eric,

If there is access from the basement below most of the time door
alarm sensors are easy to wire even on an older home. French
doors usually have one door that must be open before the other
will move. Some older models allow either door to operate
independently of the other. If yours are of the former type you
only need to put sensors (called "contacts") on the door that
moves first.

The simplest way to protect French doors is with a roller/plunger
type sensor installed in the frame on the hinge side. I've tried
numerous brands and found that most tend to jam shut after a few
years. The one exception, IME, is a model from Sentrol (now part
of GE Security) called a 3005. When installed properly about the
only thing that can present a problem for these is paint. Just
don't paint them. This is how I've done it a few thousand times.

Using a 3/4" speed bore, carefully drill a hole in the hinge side
of the door frame, 2" above the threshold and parallel to the
floor. Make the hole about 2" deep. STOP.

Swap the drill bit for a 1/2" diameter, 16" long bit (often
called a "feeler bit"). Place the tip of the small bit inside
the large hole. Raise the drill motor so that the bit is about
60º off the floor. Swing the motor outside the door about 3" so
that the small hole will appear in the basement. By drilling at
this compound angle you won't wind up going through a 10-12"
joist.

Mark the cable with a fine point, Sharpie laundry marker and
shove a few feet of it into the hole. I like to use 22-gauge,
4-conductor (22/4) solid cable for alarm sensors. The jacket is
just a little smaller than that 1/4" hole you just drilled and
the solid core stuff is easy to push through to the cellar below.
Have your SO pull enough cable out in the basement to make neat
turns over to where you will hang the control panel cabinet,
leaving a couple of feet extra at each end. Bend the extra pair
of wires out of the way but don't cut them off. They'll come in
handy if you accidentally cut or short another wire with a
staple.

Solder and tape or heat shrink the connections at the sensor end,
place a tiny dab of silicone sealant (RTV or bathtub caulk is OK)
on the flange of the sensor and shove it into the hole. There
are screw holes to mount the sensor but I prefer a dab of RTV.

Leave a 12-18" "service loop" of cable in the cellar below in
case you ever need to change the sensor.

Most US homes built in the 1920's are of "box sill" construction.
That means the wall is open from the bottom of each first floor
window to the top of the foundation. Joists rest directly on the
foundation or, in some cases, on top of a double layer of boards
called a sill plate which is laid flat atop the foundation. At
the ends of the joists a board is nailed in place to close the
outside. Short, horizontal boards called fire stops are placed
between the joists in the basement.

Very few houses from the 1920's have adequate insulation. Some
have had it blown in later. Some have nothing at all. No matter
which you have it's not hard to fish cables through the outside
walls.

Keypads, motion detectors and such usually use the same
4-conductor wire mentioned above. Make a small hole in the wall
where the device will be installed and shove a little cable
inside. If you meet no resistance at all it's probably
uninsulated. Shove enough cable in to reach the floor plus an
extra couple of feet.

In the basement, use a 3/4" speed bore (sometimes called a
"paddle bit" to drill a hole in the fire stop below the detector
or keypad location. Make the hole at about a 45º angle so it's
easy to feed an electrician's snake into the wall. I like to
mark the snake a foot or two longer than the height of the cable.

Push the snake up until the mark reaches the hole and slowly pull
it back, making a couple of turns with the handle as you go to
snag the cable. Once you have the cable the rest is easy.

Note: Some older US homes have diagonal hurricane braces
installed between the last two studs next to each corner. In
particular if the house is in New England and it was built in the
late 20's to early 30's avoid corner locations.

Also, some homes have horizontal fire stops midway up the walls.
This was not too common in the 1920's though it is fairly common
on more recent construction.

With a little patience and a modicum of tool skills, most people
can install a hard-wired security system in a weekend or two.
The advantages of hard-wired are threefold. It's not likely to
become obsolete in your lifetime. It requires less maintenance.
There aren't a lot of boxes on the walls (makes for a higher WAF
rating).

Installing four or five door sensors in a 1920 era home should
only take a few hours. The keypad and siren(s) shouldn't be a
major problem if you avoid putting them right next to a corner.
There are flush-mount, interior sirens that can be installed at
heater vent height, a few inches above the baseboard. They look
like air return grills only smaller.

If you want to place a keypad on the second floor, go to the
attic and look for the DWV stack. That's a black pipe sticking
up through the roof to vent the "poop pipe". In the 1920's no
one had large hole saws since they didn't yet exist. The DWV
stack was fed through a square hole cut in the top and bottom of
each level, leaving a handy void (no pun intended) where you can
run cables for an attic or outside siren, second floor keypad,
smoke detectors, etc.

Feeding down to a bedroom keypad from the attic is easy. Look
for a flat 2x4 board. That's the top of the wall. Wires
emerging from that board near the bedroom door are from the light
switch. Drill a 3/4" hole an inch or two to one side from the
110 VAC stuff with your paddle bit and drop the wire in the hole.

If you need more help planning or picking out a system, contact
me if you like. I sell this stuff to DIYers in an online store
in case you're interested.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
S

Stanley Barthfarkle

Jan 1, 1970
0
I used to dread installing systems in pre-WW2 homes here in the midwest,
because the lumber shortages during WW1 and WW2 caused some really
interesting situations vis-a-vis concrete, block, stone, slabs, etc., not to
mention the challenges and dangers of working in tight places around
knob-and-tube wiring, older plumbing, etc.

Depending on how much experience you have wiring an older home, wireless
would seem to be a straightforward approach with the least amount of hassle
invloved. At the very least, go with a hybrid system, so that you can
hardwire what is easily accessible, and use wireless for the difficult
stuff. Good luck.
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
I used to dread installing systems in pre-WW2 homes here in the midwest,
because the lumber shortages during WW1 and WW2 caused some really
interesting situations vis-a-vis concrete, block, stone, slabs, etc., not to
mention the challenges and dangers of working in tight places around
knob-and-tube wiring, older plumbing, etc.

How did lumber shortages during World War II affect pre-WWII
homes? I wasn't aware that there was a lumber shortage during
either war. My folks have spoken of shortages of fuel, rubber
and lots of other petro-stuff but not about lumber. Two of my
great uncles built a thriving lumber business in Dover, NJ during
the first world war. They also built lots of houses, apartments
and commercial structures, many of which are still standing
today. All were wood frame buildings.

You might be right. There may have been a lumber shortage, but
from what I've seen (mainly in southern New England) homes were
built pretty much the same during the 1920's as they had been in
the 1910's and continued so until the mid-40's.

As to knob and tube wiring, most of it has been replaced decades
ago. There's still some around but it can easily be avoided.
Just keep low voltage wires clear of it the same as you would do
with modern Romex cable. Much had been said on that subject in
earlier threads.

Plumbing in older homes presents no more of a problem to low
voltage work than it does in newer places. In fact, the
oversized holes used to run old-fashioned plumbing systems
sometimes come in handy when running new cable.
Depending on how much experience you have wiring an
older home, wireless would seem to be a straightforward
approach with the least amount of hassle invloved...

Wireless is always easier to install. The problems with wireless
have already been enumerated in this thread.
At the very least, go with a hybrid system, so that you
can hardwire what is easily accessible, and use wireless
for the difficult stuff.

On that we agree. However, since the vast majority of new
systems are hybrid capable, the DIYer can select a system based
on it's other capabilities. Ademco, ITI, Napco and several other
manufacturers all make decent systems capable of using wireless
and wired sensors as needed.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Hi Eric,

If there is access from the basement below most of the time door
alarm sensors are easy to wire even on an older home. French
doors usually have one door that must be open before the other
will move. Some older models allow either door to operate
independently of the other. If yours are of the former type you
only need to put sensors (called "contacts") on the door that
moves first.

The simplest way to protect French doors is with a roller/plunger
type sensor installed in the frame on the hinge side. I've tried
numerous brands and found that most tend to jam shut after a few
years. The one exception, IME, is a model from Sentrol (now part
of GE Security) called a 3005. When installed properly about the
only thing that can present a problem for these is paint. Just
don't paint them. This is how I've done it a few thousand times.

So... without finding out where he's living, you're suggesting he
install a plunger type switch in the door frame of an eighty year old
house... Sure, Robert... Sure...

Using a 3/4" speed bore, carefully drill a hole in the hinge side
of the door frame, 2" above the threshold and parallel to the
floor. Make the hole about 2" deep. STOP.

Better yet, STOP before you even begin.

Swap the drill bit for a 1/2" diameter, 16" long bit (often
called a "feeler bit").

You use awefully big "feeler bits" in Bahia...

Place the tip of the small bit inside
the large hole. Raise the drill motor so that the bit is about
60º off the floor. Swing the motor outside the door about 3" so
that the small hole will appear in the basement. By drilling at
this compound angle you won't wind up going through a 10-12"
joist.

Or the wiring for the light switch next to the door??
 
S

Stanley Barthfarkle

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert, you are a know-it-all. A jackoff. A boor. A Cliff Clavin. You have
an answer for everything, and want to argue every point. I'm not going to
bother entering a point/counterpoint with you tonight, especially about the
availability/unavailability of cheap lumber during the World Wars and
Depression Era, but I feel that it's been way too long since I called you
what you are- a Class A Prick..
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert, you are a know-it-all. A jackoff. A boor. A Cliff Clavin. You have
an answer for everything, and want to argue every point. I'm not going to
bother entering a point/counterpoint with you tonight, especially about the
availability/unavailability of cheap lumber during the World Wars and
Depression Era, but I feel that it's been way too long since I called you
what you are- a Class A Prick..

Sorry to have offended you by disagreeing with you. It's
unfortunate that you are unable to accept disagreement without
resorting to such childish outbursts.

I don't mind if you can't come up with a reasonable counterpoint
other than the above, but perhaps you can at least try to explain
how shortages in WWII (1939 to 1945) and the great depression
(which started in 1929) affected construction in 1920.

Without benefit of your vast knowledge of history, we can only
assume that the lumber market anticipated the troubles to come
and dried up years in advance. Boggles the mind, eh?

To the point, if you want to try to dissuade people from DIY, I
can understand your motive. You make a living installing alarms.
No problem. I advocate DIY and I make a living catering to
DIYers via my online alarm system store. It's natural that I
want to explain how to do this sort of thing, just as it is
natural that you want to make people believe that doing so is
dangerous / impossible / against the law / whatever.

I would suggest though that you stick to facts. Try not to make
up stories or at least try to use ones that aren't so silly. It
doesn't make you sound knowledgeable when you try to associate
lumber shortages in WWII with construction issues in homes that
were built a generation *before* WWII. It just sounds like
you're trying *very* hard to prove an unprovable argument, to
wit, that there's some sort of "art" to installing alarms. There
isn't.

This isn't rocket science. It's not a profession like medicine
or engineering. It's a blue collar trade requiring little or no
education. Your tirade above only serves to prove the point.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
N

Norm Mugford

Jan 1, 1970
0
Your comments, Mr. BAss, to Eric show why you
don't have an Alarm license in Florida.
You don't have a clue; Do you Mr. BAss?

Norm Mugford



Robert L Bass said:
Sorry to have offended you by disagreeing with you. It's
unfortunate that you are unable to accept disagreement without
resorting to such childish outbursts.

I don't mind if you can't come up with a reasonable counterpoint
other than the above, but perhaps you can at least try to explain
how shortages in WWII (1939 to 1945) and the great depression
(which started in 1929) affected construction in 1920.

Without benefit of your vast knowledge of history, we can only
assume that the lumber market anticipated the troubles to come
and dried up years in advance. Boggles the mind, eh?

To the point, if you want to try to dissuade people from DIY, I
can understand your motive. You make a living installing alarms.
No problem. I advocate DIY and I make a living catering to
DIYers via my online alarm system store. It's natural that I
want to explain how to do this sort of thing, just as it is
natural that you want to make people believe that doing so is
dangerous / impossible / against the law / whatever.

I would suggest though that you stick to facts. Try not to make
up stories or at least try to use ones that aren't so silly. It
doesn't make you sound knowledgeable when you try to associate
lumber shortages in WWII with construction issues in homes that
were built a generation *before* WWII. It just sounds like
you're trying *very* hard to prove an unprovable argument, to
wit, that there's some sort of "art" to installing alarms. There
isn't.

This isn't rocket science. It's not a profession like medicine
or engineering. It's a blue collar trade requiring little or no
education. Your tirade above only serves to prove the point.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
S

Stanley Barthfarkle

Jan 1, 1970
0
I never stated that he shouldn't install it himself, you fucking moron. He
is obviously GOING to install it himself, or he wouldn't be asking- eh,
Einstein? Just trying to help the fellow out, in case he doesn't have much
experience, and point him to some wireless capable equipment. He's going to
end up using it with a home built way back then- ask him when he's done what
difficulties he encountered, troll.
 
S

Stanley Barthfarkle

Jan 1, 1970
0
<Excerpted from Article>-
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10424.shtml



Skilled labor and lumber needed to build homes were in short supply in
post-World War I years. But Sears, Roebuck and Company was ready and waiting
with kits, available by catalog and containing everything needed to build a
house.

The housing shortage in 1918 was so severe that analysts estimated that 1 to
2 million homes were needed immediately. Soldiers returning from WWI, as
well as a steady stream of immigrants through Ellis Island fueled the demand
for modestly priced houses. Sears had been courting business from this wave
of foreigners for more than a decade. Its 1905 general merchandise catalog
offered: "Write your order in any language. We have translators to read and
write in all languages."

The company's Modern Homes were hot sellers in the 1920s. Pre-cut lumber in
the house kits made skilled carpentry unnecessary and solved the problem of
lumber shortages. The Sears Modern Homes catalogs of the early 1920s were
the largest the company published. They offered 90 different house designs,
as well as plans for garages, outhouses and chicken coops.

The Sears catalog homes truly were "Modern Homes," with centralized heating
systems, electric lights and indoor plumbing. The salutary effects of living
in a modern home were extolled throughout the pages on the 1920s catalogs.
 
S

Stanley Barthfarkle

Jan 1, 1970
0
<Excerpt from the report by the Forest Service, U. S. Department of
Agriculture, June 1, 1920, entitled "Timber Depletion, Lumber Prices,
Lum­ber Exports, and Concentration of Timber Ownership.">-
http://www.workerseducation.org/crutch/pamphlets/lumber/ch006.html



There were 27,000 recorded forest fires in 1919, burning a total of 8¼
million acres. During the preceding year, 25,000 fires burned over 10½
million acres of forest land. An addi­tional large acreage was burned each
year, of which no record could be obtained.

According to estimates published in American Forestry, Sept. 1920: "The bulk
of the original supplies of yellow pine in the South will be gone in ten
years, and within seven years 3,000 manufacturing plants will go out of
business."

The following is from an article by Franklin H. Smith, Statis­tician in
Forest Products:

Going back to the middle of the last century, we can dis­tinctly trace
the history of the lumber of the country at ten year intervals by showing
the relative importance of the several pro­ducing regions.
 
C

Chub

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L Bass said:
Sorry to have offended you by disagreeing with you. It's
unfortunate that you are unable to accept disagreement >

Regards,
Rober L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarm.com

Why do you have to be so disagreeable, Mr. bAss? You have your opinion
Stanley has his which you both have stated. End of story. There is no
reason to challenge his opinion and attempt to brow beat him, it is his
opinion and I doubt you or anyone can change it in one minute on the
internet. So get a clue,
Just as in real life nobody around here wants to talk to you or debate your
silly sales pitches.
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
The company's Modern Homes were hot sellers in the 1920s.
Pre-cut lumber in the house kits made skilled carpentry
unnecessary and solved the problem of lumber shortages...

See, I told you those old homes were easy to DIY. Anyone with a
bit of patience, a modicum of tool skills and a Sears Catalog
could do it. Don't you just love reading about successful DIY
ventures?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
I never stated that he shouldn't install it himself...

Noted: You only said there were all manner of dangers in doing
so due to lumber shortages a couple of decades after his home was
built. I'm still trying to figure out how that worked but not to
worry. Your vitriolic response removed any doubt about your
motives.
you fucking moron....

Not so. I don't even know you. :^)
He is obviously GOING to install it himself, or he
wouldn't be asking- eh, Einstein? Just trying to
help the fellow out, in case he doesn't have much
experience, and point him to some wireless capable
equipment...

Which particular equipment was that?
He's going to end up using it with a home built way
back then- ask him when he's done what difficulties
he encountered,

Older homes can be more time consuming but for the most part
they're not significantly more difficult to wire than modern
homes. I've installed completely wireless systems in many old
homes over the years, including the home of *Jacob Shallus'
brother where the US Constitution was briefly hidden more than
200 years ago. On that job I had to first remove the surface
wiring installed by Sonitrash.

Once you've done a few of these jobs you get the hang of it. I
explained how to wire the detectors the gentleman mentioned.
Maybe you should print the post. That will take less effort and
prove far more useful than posting more gutter talk.

Nice sig line.

*Jacob Shallus penned the Constitution though he was not one of
the signers. As an avid history buff, you probably already knew
that, right?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Wiergate Lumber Company logged what was perhaps the
last great Texas stand of longleaf pine...

I hate to burst your bubble, friend, but Texas is not the only
state in the US with trees in it. For that matter, Texas isn't
exactly noted for its extensive forests. The destruction of
large tracts of Texas lumber did not, in and of itself,
constitute a nationwide shortage.
--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
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