Maker Pro
Maker Pro

How much does speaker polarity matter?

M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat said:
jakdedert wrote:
clifto wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much
when it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.
Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be
considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then, spend
some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about loud....
Absolutely, a drumkit should be thought of as one instrument, rather
than a collection of drums. A decent kit has all the parts nicely
balanced with each other.
For a lot of big band work, we often mike up a normal drumkit with just
two overhead mikes - just one if there`s no need for stereo. The bass
drum comes through just fine[1] Of course, it ALL depends on the talent
of the man playing the drums.

[1] I am of course referring to live sound reinforcement.

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.

That`s the classic jazz set up

I remember one drummer we had in the 90's that miked both mounted toms (1
mic), his floor tom, bass, snare/hi-hats, and had an overhead for his ride
and crash cymbals. He brought his own 8 plug snake :)
I had the same setup in my basement when I had a kit down there.
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep, and for a good reason. The drum set covers a wide frequency
range. Bass drum is mostly at the low end of the audio spectrum,
while all the brass is near the high end. The problem is that the
lower frequency stuff is almost isotropic (radiates equally in all
directions), while the high frequency stuff is fairly directional. For
example, the snake and hat tend to radiate more up and downward than
toward the audience. The result is that the drums sound different
depending on where you stand or sit. I've been told the drums sound
totally different to the drummer and audience.

My experience is with mixing post production mixing back in the late
1960's. If any group dragged in a tape with only one track for the
drums, they would be asked to re-record with 3 mics. I can clean up
the usual mess (pedal clank, stick click, etc) with noise gates and
such, but it's so much easier if the individual instruments were
recorded with a close mic (so as not to pickup sounds from other
instruments). It's a real art doing that correctly with a drum set
and really messy with an orchestra. You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.

I've had similar experience but in a modern digital studio. One trick I've
used is to soft gate the bass guitar track attack on the bass drum to
tighten up the rhythm. Being both a drummer and bass player I understand
just how closely knit the two need to be. I love to here a band where
those two really click.
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat said:
I've had similar experience but in a modern digital studio. One trick I've
used is to soft gate the bass guitar track attack on the bass drum to
tighten up the rhythm. Being both a drummer and bass player I understand
just how closely knit the two need to be. I love to here a band where
those two really click.

I've just got one of those Klark Technik SQ1 Dynamic 8 channel
gate/compressors, I haven't had much time to play with it, but that`s
one of the clever tricks that it`s ideal for.

Ron(UK)
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat said:
I remember one drummer we had in the 90's that miked both mounted toms (1
mic), his floor tom, bass, snare/hi-hats, and had an overhead for his ride
and crash cymbals. He brought his own 8 plug snake :)
I had the same setup in my basement when I had a kit down there.

If it`s rock n roll that`s the norm, but it`s not always necessary. Of
course rock drummers like to see lots of mikes, doesn`t necessarily
meant that they are all actually live.

Ron(UK)
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've just got one of those Klark Technik SQ1 Dynamic 8 channel
gate/compressors, I haven't had much time to play with it, but that`s
one of the clever tricks that it`s ideal for.

My brother found two compressors he junked picked, asked if I could look at them.
He said I could do what I wanted. After finding out they were vintage in high
demand, I tuned them up and go tabout $1200 for them on Ebay. Just mono compressors
that seemed to be liked for doing drums. That was fun. I split with my brother.

greg
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
GregS said:
My brother found two compressors he junked picked, asked if I could look at them.
He said I could do what I wanted. After finding out they were vintage in high
demand, I tuned them up and go tabout $1200 for them on Ebay. Just mono compressors
that seemed to be liked for doing drums. That was fun. I split with my brother.
Dontcha just love it when that happens

Ron
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
How do you figure that absolute phase can have any such effect ?

Arfa

I misinterpreted the wiring colours for replacing the jack plug on a set of
stereo headphones one time.
Try as an experiment, doing the same, reversing the polarity of one relative
to the other, and then try locating a soloist in the sound "image".
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat Plow said:
I've had similar experience but in a modern digital studio. One trick I've
used is to soft gate the bass guitar track attack on the bass drum to
tighten up the rhythm. Being both a drummer and bass player I understand
just how closely knit the two need to be. I love to here a band where
those two really click.

I just watched a programme on TV about the Floyd, and Nick Mason made just
that point about him and Waters.

Arfa
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
I misinterpreted the wiring colours for replacing the jack plug on a set
of
stereo headphones one time.
Try as an experiment, doing the same, reversing the polarity of one
relative
to the other, and then try locating a soloist in the sound "image".

Ah yes, agreed. But that is when one channel is reversed with respect to the
other, as has been raised repeatedly in this thread. Absolute polarity, of
two correctly phased channels, has no such effect, one way, or the other.

Arfa
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
If it`s rock n roll that`s the norm, but it`s not always necessary. Of
course rock drummers like to see lots of mikes, doesn`t necessarily
meant that they are all actually live.

Ron(UK)

We use the same basic setup for recording with the addition or two high
end AKG mike up at the ceiling of the studio. We mix a little of those in
for a natural spatial enhancement to the overall stereo image. The ceiling
in the studio is a cathedral style ceiling that's maybe 15 feet high. The
control booth and vocal isolation booth are separate.
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've just got one of those Klark Technik SQ1 Dynamic 8 channel
gate/compressors, I haven't had much time to play with it, but that`s
one of the clever tricks that it`s ideal for.

Ron(UK)

Right now we are using 4 Symetrix 525's. I really like those things and
even have one myself. I used it in conjunction with my bass rig which was
a separate Crown Microtech 1000, Gallien Kruger guitar preamp and the 525.
Now, the rig is the same amp but with a BBE bass preamp that has built in
comp/limit, BBE effect enhancement and an active crossover. I play into a
4x10 and when needed a 1x18 matched set of Fender cabinets.

By the way this "we" I refer to is myself, my sister and brother in law
who own a music store and recording studio. I own the building which is a
store front that has 3 other businesses in it and my sister and her
husband rent from me. (that is when they can afford to pay the rent)
Pretty tough business this mom and pop music store is. I still do some
repairs for them. Mostly guitar amps but I'm picky as to what I'll work on
and that which I refuse they send out. They have a decent business but
it's really hard to make money with all the chain stores around like
Guitar Center and Sam Ash to mention a few. However it's good for me
because I get calls from them when someone walks in off the street with
a piece or equipment for sale. My basement is full of sound reinforcement
gear, guitar amps, etc... :)
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
It would matter for impulses from the waveform say as in a drum beat?
Wouldn't the beat of a kick drum cause the speaker cone to move inward if
the polarity is reversed? This certainly wouldn't be suitable for a sound
reinforcement system.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In theory yes, but in practice, you'd need one hell of a system for
that to make a difference; and it's not 100% clear that it's audibly
different. Or that it's not.
 
Z

z

Jan 1, 1970
0
I`m sure it does,  but the initial pulse from a bass drum hit is a lot
higher in frequency than you might think.
If you look at a trace of a drum hit it`s quite a complex waveform,
although there`s a lot of low frequency energy, the main transient
impulse is mid band where you shouldn't be getting a lot of cone
excursion. Often this mid band impulse is accentuated by a sound
engineer to get the bass drum to 'pop out' over the rest of the band.
The bottom end is still there, but the punch comes from higher up.

The low sound that you feel in your gut (63/80hz ish)  is usually
reproduced by different sub bass speaker cabinets (and amplifiers) that
are easily capable of handling those kind of frequencies. Subs are
generally crossed over around 80/100 cycles and can be driven with
several kilowatts of amplifier power.

If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Ron(UK)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One thing is the lack of phase coherence between different drivers.
Sure, the drum head moves as one unit, pushing a wavefront with a lot
of frequencies, all lined up with their crests added. But by the time
that gets parceled out through the crossover, the phases and delays
between the drivers are all out of whack. One reason why fancier
speakers are so often stepped, with the tweeters set way back from the
fronts of the woofers, etc. So, if you've lost that punch of having
all the crests of the waveforms of different frequencies aligned in
one big tidal wave of air pressure and it's all smeared out in space/
time, you don't lose much by just flipping the polarity on the whole
thing.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
z said:
Sure, the drum head moves as one unit

I wouldn't bet on that AT ALL ! I dount it's praticularly pistonic in action.

Graham
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
I wouldn't bet on that AT ALL ! I dount it's praticularly pistonic in action.

Graham
There used to be a slo mo video on the net of a bass drum being hit, you
could see the ripples in the head as the impulse spread outwards from
the impact point to the rim.

I wonder what the time delay is between the batter head moving and the
front head following (or trying to follow)

Ron(UK
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wouldn't bet on that AT ALL ! I dount it's praticularly pistonic in action.

Graham

What's that supposed to mean?
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
In theory yes, but in practice, you'd need one hell of a system for
that to make a difference; and it's not 100% clear that it's audibly
different. Or that it's not.

I do have one hell of a system :)
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Meat said:
What's that supposed to mean?

Function like a piston meaning that the surface doesn't flex/distort. Cone
loudspeakers are considered to have pistonic action at low frequencies for example.
At higher frequencies they suffer cone break-up and are no longer pistonic.

Graham
 
C

clifto

Jan 1, 1970
0
jakdedert said:
Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then,
spend some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about
loud....

I have, going back more years than I care to relate in a public place. :)
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Leonard Caillouet said:
I agree with the notion that absolute phase is irrelevant, but one thing to
consider is that if there are other speakers or the speakers in question are
part of a system with a crossover, then you are not just talking about
absolute phase. You could have a situation where the two speakers are out
of phase with others...

Leonard

I did notice the other month, in a large London terminus railway station,
that the pa system over hundreds? of speakers is much clearer than it used
to be.
I wonder what they've done - multiple staggered delays? so there is one
coherent movement of sound along the major axis of the station?
 
Top