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How much Detail in the Patent ?

P

PhilJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm about to submit an application for a Patent to the UK patent
office, but am unsure as to how much detail to include regarding the
physical side of my 'invention'.

Basically, what I have is mainly electronics, housed in a plastic
casing. My query I suppose is as follows;


If I include drawings of every component on the PCB, and also the
full
drawing of the final product, including battery component, screw
holes
etc etc....will this preclude me from changing the final design at
some future date ? eg I may change a component, or even decide to
make
the final shape slightly different.


OR


Do I just not put any detail in other than a 'block' diagram....won't
this allow more scope for someone else copying the idea and designing
it slightly different ??


A quandry - any advice or help much appreciated.


Phil
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm about to submit an application for a Patent to the UK patent
office, but am unsure as to how much detail to include regarding the
physical side of my 'invention'.

Did you invent some electronic circuit?

If yes, then this is what you are patenting. The actual unit you made
is "one embodiment" not what you are patenting.

You should include the details needed to explain your idea. Basically
for a patent to be any good some other engineer should be able to
understand what you are patenting. An example circuit that does what
you suggest is a good way to explain things.

[....]
If I include drawings of every component on the PCB, and also the
full
drawing of the final product, including battery component, screw
holes
etc etc....will this preclude me from changing the final design at
some future date ? eg I may change a component, or even decide to
make
the final shape slightly different.

It is likely that you are providing too much detail about your
specific embodiment if you go this far. Remember it is the idea you
are patenting not the specific case of using it.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm about to submit an application for a Patent to the UK patent
office, but am unsure as to how much detail to include regarding the
physical side of my 'invention'.

Basically, what I have is mainly electronics, housed in a plastic
casing. My query I suppose is as follows;


If I include drawings of every component on the PCB, and also the
full
drawing of the final product, including battery component, screw
holes
etc etc....will this preclude me from changing the final design at
some future date ? eg I may change a component, or even decide to
make
the final shape slightly different.


OR


Do I just not put any detail in other than a 'block' diagram....won't
this allow more scope for someone else copying the idea and designing
it slightly different ??


A quandry - any advice or help much appreciated.
 
J

J.A. Legris

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm about to submit an application for a Patent to the UK patent
office, but am unsure as to how much detail to include regarding the
physical side of my 'invention'.

Basically, what I have is mainly electronics, housed in a plastic
casing. My query I suppose is as follows;

If I include drawings of every component on the PCB, and also the
full
drawing of the final product, including battery component, screw
holes
etc etc....will this preclude me from changing the final design at
some future date ? eg I may change a component, or even decide to
make
the final shape slightly different.

OR

Do I just not put any detail in other than a 'block' diagram....won't
this allow more scope for someone else copying the idea and designing
it slightly different ??

A quandry - any advice or help much appreciated.

Phil

Start here:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/patent.htm
 
J

J.A. Legris

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nope.
Spend the money in Las Vegas instead.

Your return will be ridiculously higher.

http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp

Maybe so, but obviously the long-term return is of secondary
importance for gamblers, otherwise Las Vegas would go out of business.
I suspect the same is true for many patent-holders. So, go for it -
you''re unlikely to get a patent if you don't try.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
PhilJ said:
I'm about to submit an application for a Patent to the UK patent
office, but am unsure as to how much detail to include regarding the
physical side of my 'invention'.

Basically, what I have is mainly electronics, housed in a plastic
casing. My query I suppose is as follows;


If I include drawings of every component on the PCB, and also the
full
drawing of the final product, including battery component, screw
holes
etc etc....will this preclude me from changing the final design at
some future date ? eg I may change a component, or even decide to
make
the final shape slightly different.


OR


Do I just not put any detail in other than a 'block' diagram....won't
this allow more scope for someone else copying the idea and designing
it slightly different ??


A quandry - any advice or help much appreciated.


Phil
In the US, all that is required is sufficent detail so that one
SKILLED IN THE ART can make the device (whatever it is).
That does not mean that the information is sufficent for sucessful or
complete or useful implimentation.
Drawings, descriptions, etc are "window dressing" of the patent; what
is covered is in the claims (the legal part).
I will make up a ridiculous example.
Say your item is a method to use relays to amplify microwaves, and
you found that certain patterns do that function and that there is a
commonality in those patterns that allow it to work, but you are not
positive other patterns would work or work better.
So you can make a simplified description of one of those patterns
(not the best one, naturally) and make some citation concerning possible
alterations of that pattern that makes it *possible* for someone skilled
in the art to deduce a few of the other patterns.
Your descriptions per se are not covered; it is what you say /
describe in the claims that are the legal pins of coverage.
In this case, one could describe the implimenation with latching
relays, when simple reed relays may be a better medium.
Mixing of relay types is "obviously" allowed, but you carefully do
not hint of that fact in the descriptions ("window dressing").
The wording of the claims should say that any type of relay or
switching device can be used = = broad claim, and other claims say 1)
latching relays, 2) reed relays, 3) stepping relays, .... n) switching
device similar to a relay (tube, transistor, etc) = = each one a narrow
claim.

If i remember right, once applied for here, one has a year to do a
pro-forma european application.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
....and pay thru the nose, *especially* of that patent attorney has no
electronic background.
To keep costs down, do your own patent research and read patents
closest to what you are doing (descriptions and claims).
Create your own claims; be imaginative, go wild - it is only paper
until it is filed.
Whittle, prune and polish as needed, but be careful that some crazy
claim that might be polished to useability does not get tossed out just
because it looks nuts.
If you are extremely lucky, a number of those patent claims may
discuss "Z" that also does "Y" with the emphasis on "Z" because they
were focused on "Z".
But (say) with your approach, focusing the claims on "Y" where "Z" is
a side-effect (that cannot be avoided) has implicit advantages.
*Those* claims are unique and un-assailable and kick ass, nevermind
that with present techniques the practical results may be identical.
Look at my oil lifter patent and notice that reversal.
Have fun.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, not really.
It takes a few kilobucks to file, and can take numerous megabucks to
defend.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
In the US, all that is required is sufficent detail so that one
SKILLED IN THE ART can make the device (whatever it is).
That does not mean that the information is sufficent for sucessful or
complete or useful implimentation.

It also must describe the "best mode", I.e. the best known way to
design/make the device at the time of the filing. The "teachings"
must actually teach what you know.
Drawings, descriptions, etc are "window dressing" of the patent; what
is covered is in the claims (the legal part).

Drawings cost $$ too.
I will make up a ridiculous example.
Say your item is a method to use relays to amplify microwaves, and
you found that certain patterns do that function and that there is a
commonality in those patterns that allow it to work, but you are not
positive other patterns would work or work better.
So you can make a simplified description of one of those patterns
(not the best one, naturally) and make some citation concerning possible
alterations of that pattern that makes it *possible* for someone skilled
in the art to deduce a few of the other patterns.

You must show the best one, known at the time of the filing. The
words can allude to better possibilities, though. The problem is
that someone else may patent the better implementation, later,
keeping you from using it.
Your descriptions per se are not covered; it is what you say /
describe in the claims that are the legal pins of coverage.

Yes, what you *claim* is what is protected. What is "taught" is not.
That's where many people get hung up in patents; thinking that the
obvious stuff in the teachings is the patent. Much of it is often
background to help explain the idea.
In this case, one could describe the implimenation with latching
relays, when simple reed relays may be a better medium.

If you know that a reed relay is the better solution, you must teach
it. Though you don't have to mention that it is the best.
Mixing of relay types is "obviously" allowed, but you carefully do
not hint of that fact in the descriptions ("window dressing").

Right! Try to protect all sorts of combinations; claim everything.
Always try to throw as large a net out as the patent office will
allow.
The wording of the claims should say that any type of relay or
switching device can be used = = broad claim, and other claims say 1)
latching relays, 2) reed relays, 3) stepping relays, .... n) switching
device similar to a relay (tube, transistor, etc) = = each one a narrow
claim.

If i remember right, once applied for here, one has a year to do a
pro-forma european application.

There is also a "bar date" issue. In the US, once an invention has
been published (or any "commercial advantage" taken), a one-year
clock that starts. After that year, one cannot file a patent.
Europeans have no such clock. Once published you are barred from
filing a patent.
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
Drawings cost $$ too.

You can make them yourself in something like Qcad and then print them
on a laser printer. They need to be clear and fairly neat.

[....]
You must show the best one, known at the time of the filing. The
words can allude to better possibilities, though. The problem is
that someone else may patent the better implementation, later,
keeping you from using it.

In the US, you usually have a prefered embodiment. You can show a
nonprefered embodiment "to make the explanation clear". Explaining a
digital design with an analog circuit is an example of this.

A good patent lawyer will make sure that you say you know of many
variations on the design.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can make them yourself in something like Qcad and then print them
on a laser printer. They need to be clear and fairly neat.

My point is that the patent office charges for them, no matter how
they're drawn. Sure, anything that works. The lawyer took my crude
FrameMaker drawings for one. He also lifted 90% of my words. I wish
I got paid 9x what the lawyer did.
[....]
You must show the best one, known at the time of the filing. The
words can allude to better possibilities, though. The problem is
that someone else may patent the better implementation, later,
keeping you from using it.

In the US, you usually have a prefered embodiment. You can show a
nonprefered embodiment "to make the explanation clear". Explaining a
digital design with an analog circuit is an example of this.

Absolutely. The point is that a "preferred embodiment" must be shown
if there is one. The inventor must disclose the "best mode" of the
invention.
A good patent lawyer will make sure that you say you know of many
variations on the design.

A good lawyer will help expo lore alternatives that the inventor
might not think of.

<snip>
 
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