How good is ETL safety certification?

I see appliances being sold now that lack UL or CSA approval markings
and instead are only ETL certified.

How good is ETL certification compared to those from UL and CSA?

Does ETL require actual sample products to be submitted for testing, or
are they like CE and let manufacturers work on the honor system (I have
a CE approved multimeter rated for use at up to 500V, but its fuses are
rated for only 250V, unlike a UL-approved Fluke).

Are coffee makers required to be made of fire resistant plastic by any
of the safety certification organizations? If so, which ones?

I'm asking all this because I noticed that an ETL-approved drip coffee
maker had only a bimetal thermostat to turn off the current while an
older UL-approved coffee maker also had two thermal fuses in series..

 

In the late 80's law was passed to allow other than specification writing
agencies to do testing to specifications such as UL

See http://www.labconco.com/company/standards_certs/etl.shtml for more
details.

Of course one really has to know what specifications the product is being
certified to.

There are a multitude of UL and IEC specifications that cover different
products and product applications.

Dan

--
Dan Hollands
1120 S Creek Dr
Webster NY 14580
585-872-2606

www.QuickScoreRace.com

 

ETL certification is valid. Whether to use UL or CSA or ETL is a matter of
cost, schedule, customer service, and factory location (proximity of facotry
to service provider affects FUS [follow-up service] costs).
ETL would require samples and documentation.
CE is just a mark, not an organization. ETL (like UL and many others) can
provide services permitting usage of the CE mark.
Your meter rated at 500V but having 250V fuses is not odd. These fuses are
for overcurrent protection, and 250V is the highest nominal value for
commonly available replacement fuses.
Coffee makers require flame retardant plastic (94-V0 or V1). Standard is
EN60335?
Thermostat versus two thermal fuses is an individual manufacturer's design
consideration. Either of these or other protection methods are valid as
long as all of these test in the standard(s) can be met.

 

Is there a chance that a fuse with a too low a voltage rating can
explode violently enough to pierce through the case? I noticed that
the 600V fuse in a Fluke meter was enclosed in woven fabric, possibly
for such a rupture.

I thought a coffee maker would be required to have a backup means of
shutting off the current in case the bimetal thermostat failed because
back in the 1970s or 1980s there was a big lawsuit against GE when
thermostats in some of its coffee makers failed and caused fires.

 

Back up>>>> your joking. I have had it with most of the coffee makers on
the market. I plug them in in the morning and unplug them when done. Tired
of the crappy el-cheapo stuff. If it aint plugged in it certainly will not
hurt anything.

 

Back up>>>> your joking. I have had it with most of the coffee makers on
the market. I plug them in in the morning and unplug them when done. Tired
of the crappy el-cheapo stuff. If it aint plugged in it certainly will not
hurt anything.

 

:
: Leo Yaus wrote:
:
: > Your meter rated at 500V but having 250V fuses is not odd. These
fuses are
: > for overcurrent protection, and 250V is the highest nominal value
for
: > commonly available replacement fuses.
:
: Is there a chance that a fuse with a too low a voltage rating can
: explode violently enough to pierce through the case? I noticed that
: the 600V fuse in a Fluke meter was enclosed in woven fabric,
possibly
: for such a rupture.
:
: > Coffee makers require flame retardant plastic (94-V0 or V1).
Standard is
: > EN60335?
: > Thermostat versus two thermal fuses is an individual
manufacturer's design
: > consideration. Either of these or other protection methods are
valid as
: > long as all of these test in the standard(s) can be met.
:
: I thought a coffee maker would be required to have a backup means of
: shutting off the current in case the bimetal thermostat failed
because
: back in the 1970s or 1980s there was a big lawsuit against GE when
: thermostats in some of its coffee makers failed and caused fires.

I've had the delightful experience (~1980) of being in a computer lab
next to an office where someone left one of those things going, when
they left for the day. An unforgettable experience...by the time we
could smell the smoke in the lab, the office was completely engulfed
in flames.

Are they really any safer, now? Seeing the efforts big business has
been making to remove government oversight where it can, I'm not
terribly confident about that.

 

UL isn't government. From my experience (mostly residential lighting
equipment), I haven't noticed any relaxation of standards for fire or
electrical safety. If anytthing, It has been just the opposite.
Competition appears to be good for UL. Manufacturers have options including
ETL and CSA (Canadian Standards Association) and others so there are
alternatives. That helps costs and speed of testing. They all test to the
same standards. Some lighting equipment standards are now tri-national (US,
Canada and Mexico).

TKM

 

:
: : > : > :
: > : Leo Yaus wrote:
: > :
: > : > Your meter rated at 500V but having 250V fuses is not odd.
These
: > fuses are
: > : > for overcurrent protection, and 250V is the highest nominal
value
: > for
: > : > commonly available replacement fuses.
: > :
: > : Is there a chance that a fuse with a too low a voltage rating
can
: > : explode violently enough to pierce through the case? I noticed
that
: > : the 600V fuse in a Fluke meter was enclosed in woven fabric,
: > possibly
: > : for such a rupture.
: > :
: > : > Coffee makers require flame retardant plastic (94-V0 or V1).
: > Standard is
: > : > EN60335?
: > : > Thermostat versus two thermal fuses is an individual
: > manufacturer's design
: > : > consideration. Either of these or other protection methods
are
: > valid as
: > : > long as all of these test in the standard(s) can be met.
: > :
: > : I thought a coffee maker would be required to have a backup
means of
: > : shutting off the current in case the bimetal thermostat failed
: > because
: > : back in the 1970s or 1980s there was a big lawsuit against GE
when
: > : thermostats in some of its coffee makers failed and caused
fires.
: >
: > I've had the delightful experience (~1980) of being in a computer
lab
: > next to an office where someone left one of those things going,
when
: > they left for the day. An unforgettable experience...by the time
we
: > could smell the smoke in the lab, the office was completely
engulfed
: > in flames.
: >
: > Are they really any safer, now? Seeing the efforts big business
has
: > been making to remove government oversight where it can, I'm not
: > terribly confident about that.
:
: UL isn't government.

Never said they were. UL doesn't make the laws, you know? What I'm
saying, is that big business always has, and always will try to make
an endrun around the rules, if it seems profitable, especially if it
looks like no one will ever catch them.

: From my experience (mostly residential lighting
: equipment), I haven't noticed any relaxation of standards for fire
or
: electrical safety. If anytthing, It has been just the opposite.
: Competition appears to be good for UL. Manufacturers have options
including
: ETL and CSA (Canadian Standards Association) and others so there are
: alternatives. That helps costs and speed of testing. They all test
to the
: same standards. Some lighting equipment standards are now
tri-national (US,
: Canada and Mexico).

Even if UL or some other agency has tested the products, there is
still room for poor QA...and some people cheat, when it comes to
keeping to the standards, too. Just because something you're familiar
with doesn't appear to have any problems, doesn't mean there aren't
any, either.

 

Of course. But there are data. Injuries and deaths from electrical shock
and fires for one. These have remained just about constant even though the
population has increased and has become less aware of electrical hazards (my
view). The CPSC opened an investigation of electrical/lighting fires last
year and is even paying a $50 "bounty" to fire departments to file reports.
Nothing significant so far.

What I see as the main problem at the moment is fake and counterfeited UL
(and other) marks placed on products, mostly imported, that haven't been
inspected or built to standards. Major manufacturers are paying extra to
CSA, for example, to do "dock" inspections overseas to ensure that what's in
the container is what they ordered including proper standards marking.

But where does the fake stuff end up -- on the internet, in "dollar" stores?
I don't know.

TKM

 

Many 600 volt fuses are available. The meter I use has 600 volt fuses
and they are readily available in the area I live.

 

Are 600V fuses that are no more than 3/4" long? That's all the room
there is for a fuse in my meter.

 

How do you rate a fuse for voltage? It would be a peculiar design that
would flash over between terminals even at 500 volts.

 

Really? Then try a 32 volt automotive fuse at 500 volts. PS, make
sure you can pull the plug or kill the main braker before you grab the
fire extingisher.

 

Really? Even an 1 1/4" 'automotive' fuse?

 

"Voltage Rating
The maximum voltage at which a fuse is designed to operate. Exceeding
the voltage rating of a fuse impairs its ability to clear an overload or
short circuit safely. Fuse can be used at any voltage below the fuse
voltage rating; a 250V fuse can be used in 125V circuits. Voltage
ratings are assumed to be for AC unless specifically labeled as DC."

-- http://www.circuitprotection.ca/fuseology.html#VoltageRating

Cheers!
Rich

 

Really? Even an 1 1/4" 'automotive' fuse?
[/QUOTE]

The US old style glass tube automotive fuses when burned open won't
flash over at 500 volts. But if connected to a 500 volt circuit, when
they open the melting metal will likely vaporize and the conductive
plasma created will continue the conduction. The energy released would
likely cause the fuse to explode - not acceptable for most users. On
high available current circuits the plasma could go end to end causing
conduction for a relatively long period. The arc can vaporize more metal
feeding the plasma. This can cause a large explosion with flying shrapnel.

US fuses have not only a voltage rating but a rating for the maximum
current the fuse will interrupt. If the circuit has an available fault
current higher than the fuse interrupt rating the fuse can also explode,
even though the fuse is used within its voltage rating. I expect you
have the same thing over the pond.

Multimeters are rated for where in a power circuit they can be used,
like downstream from a panel (lower avalilable fault current) or on
service wires (high available fault current). This is based on the
design as in the paragraph above. I believe this is an IEC standard.

bud--

 

More particularly related to voltage:
When a fuse opens there will be an arc. The arc will have a voltage
across it. 32 volts will not support a very long arc. 500 volts will
suport a much longer arc and will be a lot harder to extinguish. As fuse
material is vaporized (as opposed to just ionized air) the resistance of
the arc will go down and an arc with a voltage drop of 500 volts across
it will increase and be even harder to extinguish.

 

The interrupting capacity of a typical 1.25" Fast-Acting 3AG fuse at
250V is MUCH lower than at 125VAC. They will interrupt 10kA at 125V,
but only more like THIRTY-FIVE amps at 250V. Check out the data
sheets.

Put them in a situation where they can see thousands of amperes fault
current @240V and they can and often do EXPLODE, rupturing the glass
and sending fragments everywhere.

Of course the 20mm types are worse again.

That's why Fluke multimeters use a much larger fuse.

During failure of the 3AG type fuses, the melted metal ionizes inside
the fuse and allows an arc to form directly from one end cap to the
other, which has very low impedance (low voltage drop, but lots of
watts for such a small enclosed space).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

All fuses (of any qulaity) are rated for a maximum voltage. Also not usualy
in big letters they will have a maximum current they can inturrupt. While
looking at the physical size of them, they all look the same. I don't know
what the differance is in them, but there must be. I was in a class put on
by one of the fuse makers. They said that at one time one of the selling
points for so many differant kinds of fuses it that they are made for a
specific purpose. Now they have reversed the thinking (selling point) that
one fuse will replace many fuses that are similar.

It is really interisting to watch the Fluke meter film on using the wrong
fuse in a circuit.
Nice demonstration of what can hapen if you hook you meter across the
circuit while in a current or ohm range when you really mean to measuer the
voltage.

At work I look in the cabinet with fuses and see about 10 differant fuses
that are almost the same size and ratings. Some will have slightly
differant tips on them so you can not use them in the some fuse holders.
Really bad to have to stock so many differant kinds.