how do ballasts fail?

[Tzortzakakis Dimitrios]

S, are you sure it was the ballast and not the starter?(Don?t call me an
arsehole like you did with bushbadee, if you do then I?m gonna laugh, I know
an english teacher from Scotland who is swearing all the time, you know he
told me about his parents when they were 65-70 and after a good dinner his
father asked his mother if there was any ice-cream, and she
answered:'Yes,it?s up my fucking arse'.Besides that,you know you misspel
most words and you shouldn?t hear that from a greek.

 

[Ross Mac]

here we fucking go.....a flame war with a worthless yank..........maybe bin
laden was right..........
differs

Yipes....that hit below the belt my friend....
I do agree...you didn't have it coming.....take care from the US.....Ross

 

[s]

theseparticular fittings do not use a starter(16w ge 2d)

 

[AC/DCdude17]

X-No-Archive: Yes

Man, ever heard of sentence structure? Your writing's extremely hard to
follow. It helps to put together something that's easy to follow if you want
people to read it. You have no pattern in punctuations and it's full of
spelling errors.

 

[AC/DCdude17]

X-No-Archive: Yes

Pre-heat start is hard on lamps. Good portion of fluorescent fixtures are
installed in commercial setups running 277V, yet we don't see pre-heat glow
starter lamps.

 

[AC/DCdude17]

X-No-Archive: Yes

So I take it written communcation skills isn't a part of prerequisite for
obtaining electrician's license in UK? It's sad if that were the case.

I guess passing 8th grade English is more difficult than becoming an incompetent
electrician.

 

[Andrew Gabriel]

X-No-Archive: Yes

Pre-heat start is hard on lamps.

Pre-heat has the electrodes up to thermionic emission temperature
before the arc strikes, which is significantly less hard on the
lamps than instant start.

Good portion of fluorescent fixtures are
installed in commercial setups running 277V, yet we don't see pre-heat glow
starter lamps.

In the US, you seem to have spawned a range of different tubes for
different control gear, as people work out different solutions to running
tubes on 120V. Outside of the US (at least in Europe and other parts
of the world I've been to), all T12 and T8 lamps are designed only
for pre-heat. Other types of control gear exist, but they are all
designed to use preheat tubes.

In commercial premises, lamps which are switched once a day or less
mostly fail (or at least become uneconomic) due to phosphor degredation,
not failure of the electrodes.

In the case of the 2-D tube the original poster is using, the glow
starter is almost certainly integral in the tube base, and it cannot
be used with any other type of control gear.

 

[bushbadee]

bushbaby,you are one complete arsehole.americans call people like me a
master electrician,but then,yanks are so far up there own arse its beyond
belief>YOU would not Know how to deal with a live 415V circuit,as i do.you

you ought to put your foul mouth on strike.

 

[bushbadee]

and he charges about $100 an hour.
Thats about $200,000 a year.

You wouldn't want him to make less than a decent living.

 

[AC/DCdude17]

X-No-Archive: Yes

Pre-heat has the electrodes up to thermionic emission temperature
before the arc strikes, which is significantly less hard on the
lamps than instant start.

You forgot to factor in the fact pre-start almost never successfully starts on
first interruption. Instant and rapid start lamps are rated from 12K to 24K
hours. Pre-start lamps are 6 to 7.5K.

 

[Andrew Gabriel]

X-No-Archive: Yes



You forgot to factor in the fact pre-start almost never successfully starts on
first interruption.

So what? The glow starter keeps on heating the electrode more until
it reaches thermionic emission temperature and the arc strikes.
It very deliberately doesn't strike before then, as that causes
electrode coating sputtering.

Instant and rapid start lamps are rated from 12K to 24K
hours. Pre-start lamps are 6 to 7.5K.

This is completely meaningless. I had a computer room full of 8'
glow-starter lamps (probably around 200 tubes) which went over
100,000 hours, with probably only 25% failure rate. Trouble was
the phosphor was down to well under half light output and site
maintenance wouldn't replace tubes until they completely failed
to light, but I can assure you nothing about glow-starter limits
tube life to anywhere near as low as 7,500hrs.
The economic life of the phosphor is limited to perhaps 20-30k
hours. If you are switching once per day, the glow starter has
no effect on tube life. This assumes you have the correct rating
of glowstarter and it is of reasonable quality. Glowstart doesn't
work well with very short tubes on 240V (such as the older T5
tubes), because 240V can be enough to start them in cold cathode
mode without the electrodes being preheated, which quickly
sputters the coating off in the case of frequent switching.

In my garage, I have 3 identical 5' 65W fittings, except that I
have replaced the control gear in two of them with instant start
(the third is standard glow-start). They are all switched together
so ageing is identical, and they get switched quite frequently
because there are a number of things in the garage which are
frequently accessed. They've been there 3.5 years which isn't
long enough for any of the tubes to have failed, but the two
instant start ones are showing signs of electrode coating
sputtering, whereas the tube with glow start control gear still
looks brand new. My guess is the glow start will well outlast
the instant start tubes.

 

[Ross Mac]

So what? The glow starter keeps on heating the electrode more until
it reaches thermionic emission temperature and the arc strikes.
It very deliberately doesn't strike before then, as that causes
electrode coating sputtering.


This is completely meaningless. I had a computer room full of 8'
glow-starter lamps (probably around 200 tubes) which went over
100,000 hours, with probably only 25% failure rate. Trouble was
the phosphor was down to well under half light output and site
maintenance wouldn't replace tubes until they completely failed
to light, but I can assure you nothing about glow-starter limits
tube life to anywhere near as low as 7,500hrs.
The economic life of the phosphor is limited to perhaps 20-30k
hours. If you are switching once per day, the glow starter has
no effect on tube life. This assumes you have the correct rating
of glowstarter and it is of reasonable quality. Glowstart doesn't
work well with very short tubes on 240V (such as the older T5
tubes), because 240V can be enough to start them in cold cathode
mode without the electrodes being preheated, which quickly
sputters the coating off in the case of frequent switching.

In my garage, I have 3 identical 5' 65W fittings, except that I
have replaced the control gear in two of them with instant start
(the third is standard glow-start). They are all switched together
so ageing is identical, and they get switched quite frequently
because there are a number of things in the garage which are
frequently accessed. They've been there 3.5 years which isn't
long enough for any of the tubes to have failed, but the two
instant start ones are showing signs of electrode coating
sputtering, whereas the tube with glow start control gear still
looks brand new. My guess is the glow start will well outlast
the instant start tubes.

You know, many engineers and techs consider flourescent lighting repairs a
joke.....You have demonstrated that they are more complicated than many
would think. I remember sending a senior tech out to fix one on a piece of
equipment...when all was said and done...he needed help. .. So few
components but still a specialized field as many fields are in
electronics!....take care Andrew, Ross

 

[Tzortzakakis Dimitrios]

BTW, how come you charge 50 quid for an hour of work?Do you have a price
list from your union?We have one.I usually take 3 euro minimum for a visit,
and normally it?s 30 euro an hour.Do you consider only the time you work or
the time between your departure and arrival from your premises?

 

[daestrom]

You know, many engineers and techs consider flourescent lighting repairs a
joke.....You have demonstrated that they are more complicated than many
would think. I remember sending a senior tech out to fix one on a piece of
equipment...when all was said and done...he needed help. .. So few
components but still a specialized field as many fields are in
electronics!....take care Andrew, Ross

Ain't that the truth. Uncle replaced his old 'glow-starter' style with a
newer 'rapid-start'. Darn thing wouldn't work right. Only would 'light' if
he touched the tube or the frame after switching on. That's when his nephew
(me) had to explain that when the instructions say the fixture frame must be
grounded, there's a *reason* for it. Problem solved.

daestrom

 

[Ross Mac]

and he charges about $100 an hour.
Thats about $200,000 a year.

You wouldn't want him to make less than a decent living.


nothing...........Did need

Hey bush...how ya doing?
I'm with Keith here...If I go into a job my charge is $250 minimum whether I
am there a half hour or an hour and a half....Though, if its something
simple (10 minutes), I comp it and tell them next time I charge....
The cost of a vehicle, insurance, equipment, years of experience and the
posibility of complications warrants it...
Have a great one there bush man! (hmmm...maybe I should reword that huh!)

 

[bushbadee]

Hey bush...how ya doing?
I'm with Keith here...If I go into a job my charge is $250 minimum whether I
am there a half hour or an hour and a half....Though, if its something
simple (10 minutes), I comp it and tell them next time I charge....
The cost of a vehicle, insurance, equipment, years of experience and the
posibility of complications warrants it...
Have a great one there bush man! (hmmm...maybe I should reword that huh!)

And I thought I charged a lot.
Up here on this mountian most computer consultants are glad if they can get
$25 bucks an hour.
I stopped doing it as it just did not pay.

I guess large companies might be able to afford $250 bucks but I do not
think most normal people can.
I just had my dishwasher fixed.
It was $65 for the service call, applied to the labor fee if a part had to
be replaced.
But for that the guy had to drive about 100 miles round trip, up a 6000
foot high mountain.
Of course he tries to batch his calls so he calls on two or three people in
one day.

I have a Maytag and boy did they try to screw me.
I had it about 2 years and it has had 4 repairs in that 2 years.
I called the Maytag factory and they checked the date I bought it and told
me they were going to give special consideration and only charge me half
for the parts.
Well the repair man came, told me I needed a new motor water pump,
He told me it was out of service contract but that the parts were gaurenteed
for 5 years so the moter water pump which is about the whole machine would
cost me nothing.
I told him what the factory had said, and he said, boy were they trying to
screw you.

No more Maytags for me or any one in my family.
By the way, he also told me that about 1/3 of the Maytag washers that come
into his store (and they are the major Maytag distributors in my region)
come in not working.
So much for Maytags vaunted reliability.

 

[Ross Mac]

whether

And I thought I charged a lot.
Up here on this mountian most computer consultants are glad if they can get
$25 bucks an hour.
I stopped doing it as it just did not pay.

I guess large companies might be able to afford $250 bucks but I do not
think most normal people can.
I just had my dishwasher fixed.
It was $65 for the service call, applied to the labor fee if a part had to
be replaced.
But for that the guy had to drive about 100 miles round trip, up a 6000
foot high mountain.
Of course he tries to batch his calls so he calls on two or three people in
one day.

I have a Maytag and boy did they try to screw me.
I had it about 2 years and it has had 4 repairs in that 2 years.
I called the Maytag factory and they checked the date I bought it and told
me they were going to give special consideration and only charge me half
for the parts.
Well the repair man came, told me I needed a new motor water pump,
He told me it was out of service contract but that the parts were gaurenteed
for 5 years so the moter water pump which is about the whole machine would
cost me nothing.
I told him what the factory had said, and he said, boy were they trying to
screw you.

No more Maytags for me or any one in my family.
By the way, he also told me that about 1/3 of the Maytag washers that come
into his store (and they are the major Maytag distributors in my region)
come in not working.
So much for Maytags vaunted reliability.

I'm with you on the Maytags....I have a washer that likes to walk across the
room if the load is not "perfectly balanced". And it is leveled correctly
too!
The repair guys used to say they were "Maytagging it" on slow days....I
guess that one is gone.
I guess you figured out that the consumer electronics business doesn't pay
as well as industrial electronics. If you have a million dollar line down,
and it's costing you 10 bucks a minute...Well, they will pay anything to get
it going. It's not difficult to make $1000 a day if you are good at
industrial automation and own your own business!
So Happy Holidays there bushman....Ross
(I still should think about re-wording that!!)

 

[bushbadee]

Perhaps I should go back into industrial electronics.
I had a friend who had a stamper stamping out metal parts.
The problem is that sometimes the machine would not full eject the part and
then come down again.
That would jam the machine and they would have to clear it before they could
start it again.
So he had to have some one sit there and press the button.
The machine knocked out a part every second revelution of the fly wheel.

Well I made him an electric eye that detected the part as it passed out of
the range of the stamper.
Still had a guy sitting there feeding the machine, but now the eye caught
the part coming out so quick that it tossed out a part every revelution.
Doubled production and no jams.
He was a buddy so I did not charge him any thing.

A couple of days later a huge truck pulled up in front of my house and off
loaded about 40 sheets of 4X8 beutifally finished plywood panels which which
I refinished my garage into a finished room .
The stuff was worth close to a thousand dollars.
I should have taken the hint then.

I used to work for Teledyne.
They had a line down that was producing about 40 million dollars worth of
power supplies for some gov equipment.
They thought it was ripple but it was an oscillation.
I discovered the problem was the op amp required a resistor after it when
driving a capitive load ir ut would oscillate.
Took about two days to fix the problem, (Soldeir a real small 1/10 watt, 100
ohm resistor on the board. on the output of the amp. They were so pleased
with my solution as it got the line going better than every, and every
supply they built now passed inspection, that about 2 months later they
laid me off.

 

[Ross Mac]

Perhaps I should go back into industrial electronics.
I had a friend who had a stamper stamping out metal parts.
The problem is that sometimes the machine would not full eject the part and
then come down again.
That would jam the machine and they would have to clear it before they could
start it again.
So he had to have some one sit there and press the button.
The machine knocked out a part every second revelution of the fly wheel.

Well I made him an electric eye that detected the part as it passed out of
the range of the stamper.
Still had a guy sitting there feeding the machine, but now the eye caught
the part coming out so quick that it tossed out a part every revelution.
Doubled production and no jams.
He was a buddy so I did not charge him any thing.

A couple of days later a huge truck pulled up in front of my house and off
loaded about 40 sheets of 4X8 beutifally finished plywood panels which which
I refinished my garage into a finished room .
The stuff was worth close to a thousand dollars.
I should have taken the hint then.

I used to work for Teledyne.
They had a line down that was producing about 40 million dollars worth of
power supplies for some gov equipment.
They thought it was ripple but it was an oscillation.
I discovered the problem was the op amp required a resistor after it when
driving a capitive load ir ut would oscillate.
Took about two days to fix the problem, (Soldeir a real small 1/10 watt, 100
ohm resistor on the board. on the output of the amp. They were so pleased
with my solution as it got the line going better than every, and every
supply they built now passed inspection, that about 2 months later they
laid me off.

Layoffs are always on the horizon...sometimes the guys on the top don't know
who the contributors are!!
Have a Great Holiday Bushdabee....Ross

 

[bushbadee]

They new ross.
A vp and the vp of engineering had changed jobs so the new vpe wanted his
own guy in.
They went down the tubes as a result.

But they did offer me a job elsewhere, to far from home makeing drones.