How can the new Yamaha HH65 Hi-Hat Pedals be modified to work with the Yamaha DD-50?

[hsr]

Dear Frens, how can the new Yamaha HH65 Hi-Hat Pedals be modified to work with the old Yamaha DD-50 Digital Drums?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Can you at least provide links to the technical data on these products?

 

[geekygenius]

How well do you want it to work? From snooping around a bit, it looks like the HH-65 has some kind of middle state (not fully opened or closed), I forget what its called. What kind of connection does the HH65 support? If it uses CV, then you may need a CV to MIDI CC converter. Once you get the signal into MIDI that the DD50 can process, than it depends a little more on how you want the HH65 to control the DD50.

 

[hsr]

DD50 Service Manual
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?03c3w8ysfxelzic

DD50 Parts List
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?8exkof222xhwfzz

DD50 PCB, CD Diagrams
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?1v7unhiv13dkaud
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?l2etoey592cp370

DD50 Owner's Manual
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/DD50E.pdf

HH65 Owner's Manual
http://89.228.128.119/RemoteDownloa...87d&file=HH65+YAMAHA+Owner's+Manual++-+EN.pdf

I can't find the technical data for the HH65 pedals.

 

[hsr]

Ya geekygenius, the HH65 pedals allow for the half-opened hi-hats sound not available in the DD50. I want the HH65 pedals to work exactly like the foot switches that come with the DD50. Will changing the HH65 stereo cable to a mono cable make it work? I don't know about CV and MIDI CC at all. When the stereo cable plug has contact with the HH65 socket, it makes the bass drum sound. Fully plugging in the stereo cable and stepping on the HH65 pedal has no response.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Thanks for the links.

The DD50 owner's manual isn't in English. Do you have a link to one that is?

I'll preface my comments by saying that my electronic music experience is narrow and out-of-date. I'm trying to help but I may have made some wrong assumptions.

Here are three relevant quotes from the HH65 owner's manual (emphasis mine):

"When used in conjunction with a pad such as the TP65, etc. as the hi-hat pad, it is capable of providing operation and tone that comes extremely close to that of an acoustic hi-hat, from fully open to fully closed and more."

"Changes in the sound produced by the hi-hat pad can also be obtained according to the amount that the HH65's pedal is depressed (close/half open/open)."

"Sensor System: Continuous Switch x1".

These statements are contradictory. Does the HH65 report its exact position or foot pressure, so the sound of a partly open hi-hat can be simulated continuously over the full range? That is, tightly closed, gently closed, slightly open, half open, fully open, and everywhere in between? Or does it just report three possibilities: closed, half open, fully open?

If the former, the HH65 pedal contains more than just switches; it has a potentiometer or pressure sensor that requires a voltage on one cable connection and produces a variable control voltage on another cable connection, according to the pressure on the pedal. If the latter, it probably just has two switches. Both possibilities are consistent with a TRS cable.

(Since it uses a standard TRS jack cable, I very much doubt that it uses MIDI.)

That's the first question.

The second question is, what capabilities does your drum synth have, and is it compatible (at all) with a hi-hat pedal that reports the pedal state as either (a) one of three possibilities, or (b) a continuous voltage representing the pedal pressure?

The drum synth may only support a simple ON/OFF signal on its hi-hat pedal input. In that case, you may be able to use the HH65 with it, but only as an ON/OFF pedal, so you wouldn't be able to use the cool HH65 features.

I haven't downloaded the DD50 technical manuals because I don't trust MediaFire enough to let them run their scripts on my machine (this is part of my plan to avoid malware, which has been successful so far). If you can upload them to the other site, I can look at them and I may be able to answer the second question.

You may be able to answer the first question if you're prepared to open up the pedal and take some photos of what's inside. I'm mainly interested in the component in the top of the box with the jack socket, that is pushed down by the flexible finger that's attached to the bottom of the moving pedal at the front. I think it's a pressure detector. I would like to know the part number, if it has one, and how it is wired to the jack socket.

 

[hsr]

Sorry, this is the English one.
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/DD50E.pdf

 

[hsr]

KrisBlueNZ, is 4shared ok?

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Thanks for the English Owner's Manual. I'm looking at it now.

Re 4shared, I don't know. Try uploading the DD50 Service Manual and post the URL, and I'll have a look.

 

[hsr]

DD50 Parts List
http://www.4shared.com/office/owvhoYWX/DD50_Parts_List.html

DD50 Service Manual
http://www.4shared.com/office/2DtaSbFP/DD50_Service_Manual.html

DD50 PCB, CD Diagrams
http://www.4shared.com/photo/l3492A-7/DD50_CD.html
http://www.4shared.com/photo/tsAaldpb/DD50_PCB.html

 

[hsr]

How well do you want it to work? From snooping around a bit, it looks like the HH-65 has some kind of middle state (not fully opened or closed), I forget what its called. What kind of connection does the HH65 support? If it uses CV, then you may need a CV to MIDI CC converter. Once you get the signal into MIDI that the DD50 can process, than it depends a little more on how you want the HH65 to control the DD50.

I want the HH65s to work like the foot switches that come with the DD50. So the HH65 won't just work with the DD50 using a mono guitar cable instead of the stereo cable provided? Is the CV to MIDI CC converter something that can be bought or made? I don't have much information googling for it.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

OK thanks for that.

I'm sorry to say that the DD-50 cannot support the special features of the HH65 pedal. Each pedal socket only has a single connection to the main processor in the DD-50 and that connection is digital, so the DD-50 cannot respond to the position or pressure of the foot pedal because it cannot measure it.

The foot pedal signals enter the H8/3002 MCU inside the DD-50 on port pins P6.1 and P6.2. The analogue-capable inputs are P7.0~P7.7. Port 6 is not analogue-capable.

It will still be possible to use the HH65 with the DD-50 as an ON/OFF pedal but you may need to make an adapter to connect them together. If you want help with that, have a look inside the pedal and tell me what the pressure sensor is, and how it's connected to the jack socket. Take a photo too.

 

[hsr]

Thanks Kris! Is the adapter a CV to MIDI CC converter geekygenius talked about? I will open up the HH65 but I need to be sure I can put it back to work properly again.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

No, there's no MIDI involved.
Probably what's needed is a power source and a comparator of some kind, to detect when the pedal pressure is greater than a certain amount. I imagine it would be a box with a socket to connect to the pedal, a socket to connect to the DD-50, and a socket for power (DC 5~12V probably).

It MIGHT be possible to build the circuitry inside a plug, so you could avoid the box and just have a special cable that runs from the pedal to the DD-50, with an extra wire coming out of the plug for the power source.

I don't think it will be possible to avoid the power source, unfortunately. It MIGHT be possible, depending on the characteristics of the pressure sensor in the pedal. That's why I need to know more about it.

 

[hsr]

Thanks Kris! Will the HH65 service manual, parts list, PCB or CD diagram give you the information you need to help me further? I'm thinking of requesting for it in the forums than to disassemble my HH65 pedal.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

Yes, that's a good idea. There may not be a PCB, but the service manual, circuit diagram and parts list would be very helpful.

Also you asked

> Kris, you're very sure that changing the stereo cable that comes with the HH65
> pedal to a mono guitar cable won't make it work with the DD50. There's bass
> drum sound every time the stereo cable plug touches the jack on the DD50.

It's possible that it might work, but not likely. It depends on the characteristics of the pressure detector in the pedal, and how it's wired. You would be very lucky if it happened to work.

It's odd that you hear a kick drum when you plug your plug into the hi-hat jack on the DD-50. Those two pedal jack inputs can be remapped though. Perhaps you have the hi-hat pedal jack mapped to the kick drum sound? Look in the owner's manual for the section "Assigning a voice to individual pads and pedals"; it shows how to map the pedal jack sockets to individual sounds in the kit.

Also, do you have a multimeter? Or can you borrow one?

Edit: The reason I didn't reply earlier was that it's night time here

 

[hsr]

There's the bass drum sound every time the stereo plug have contact with the jack when it's still not fully plugged in yet. When fully plugged in, stepping on the HH65 pedal have no response at all. I know how to assign the bass drum and hi-hats sounds to the 2 pedals if they work. Thanks.

 

[hsr]

HH65 Schematic

Kris, I managed to get this HH65 schematic. It's attached.

The HH65 pedal uses a conductive rubber switch which progressively shorts out the resistors. The capacitor/diode are to do with the "splash" I believe. The DD50 uses simple switches.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

OK, thanks for that. Unfortunately, the way the pedal is supposed to work is not clear from this drawing. The connection to the rubber part that touches the contacts, if there is any connection to it, is not shown.

Can you find a circuit diagram for any Yamaha product that is designed to connect to an HH-65 pedal? If I can see a diagram of input circuitry that is designed to connect to that pedal, it may help me understand how it's supposed to work.

I'm assuming that one of the cable conductors is a power supply, and the other is a signal which represents the pedal pressure, either as a voltage or perhaps as a resistance. But this is not clear to me from the circuit diagram of the pedal.

Anyone else following this thread, if you have any suggestions for how the pedal works, please post them.

 

[hsr]

Thanks Kris! The HH-65 pedal connects to the Yamaha DTX series drum modules. You will need to see the circuit diagram of the module?